Government Operations Committee on Oct. 8th, 2024

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the findings of the audit was that resources at ECCC were strained, and some of the lack of documentation and some of the other audit findings probably stem from a lack of internal resources to manage the process. It seems like a pretty logical finding that, if you increase grants and contributions astronomically in a short period of time and don't invest resources in the processes to manage that, they're not going to be managed appropriately.

Does Treasury Board have guidelines around internal resourcing, given different levels of grants and contributions? If you're giving out $2 billion, should you allocate 5% for internal capacity to actually document, to write things down and do those kinds of things?

[Annie Boudreau]

Every time there is a new program brought to Treasury Board for approval, it is accompanied by what we call a CFO attestation. The CFO will be looking at the new programs that the departments will need to run, and based on the new program and the complexity of that program, the CFO will be requiring additional internal services or additional full-time equivalents in order to be able to run that program.

Before it goes to Treasury Board, several discussions will happen between the department and us to make sure we have the proper level of additional internal services required and to make sure that, effectively, the department will be able to deliver.

Coming back to that audit, if I may, the fact that it is decentralized means I don't think that they can.... There is room to gain more efficiency and maybe to be able to run those programs in a more timely manner.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

There's a process in place. If the process works as it's supposed to, the resources shouldn't be strained, since they should be augmented appropriately based on this conversation with the CFO. In this case, obviously, it didn't work, because one of the audit findings is that resources were strained.

How are we going to ensure it works in the future?

[Annie Boudreau]

Again, that will be a discussion, like I said, between organizations and TBS. They will also look at their internal processes to make sure they are effective and efficient. We always recommend that departments look inside to make sure there is some way to reallocate money internally, because we're talking about taxpayers' money.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Okay.

Is that it?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That's it.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Mazier, welcome to OGGO. Go ahead for five minutes.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you, Chair.

An internal audit of the grants and contributions program revealed that the environment department was not monitoring 10% of the projects and not reviewing a further 27%.

Why weren't these projects being monitored?

[Annie Boudreau]

That is based on the risk of those programs. We cannot monitor all programs, as we cannot audit every element. I would say that is probably a question for the department. They can provide more information about why those specific elements were not entirely looked at—the entire grants and contributions funding.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Personally, I find it quite unacceptable. Here you have an environment minister not monitoring how many emissions are being reduced with taxpayers' dollars. You don't have a reason for it.

It's ultimately up to the minister to send that signal back to you guys to check for that.

[Annie Boudreau]

It is up to the deputy minister—

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

The deputy minister.

[Annie Boudreau]

—to make sure that they have the right controls in place, that their programs are effective and that they have fulfilled their obligation regarding the terms and conditions of the contribution funding or grant.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Thank you.

Can you provide a list of projects to the committee that were not being reviewed and monitored?

[Annie Boudreau]

We'll follow up with the department and provide that information to the committee.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You can provide that. Thank you.

The government launched an $8-billion taxpayer-funded program called the net-zero accelerator. The government claimed it could reduce emissions by giving away $8 billion to megacorporations through this program. According to the environment commissioner, “A project of more than $50 million also requires Treasury Board approval, concurrence letters from ministers of other concerned departments, and Cabinet approval”. The commissioner also stated that net-zero accelerator projects “can be fast-tracked with a letter to the Prime Minister.”

How many net-zero accelerator projects were fast-tracked with a letter to the Prime Minister?

[Annie Boudreau]

I don't have that information for you. We can go back to the department. My understanding is that the commissioner will be appearing just after us, so this could be a question for him.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

In that list of people that goes to the Treasury Board.... Do you have any recollection of letters, or anything like that? That would never go past your desk—a letter of approval.

[Annie Boudreau]

No, I don't have any recollection.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

Are you aware of any other emissions reduction projects that can be fast-tracked with a letter to the Prime Minister?

[Annie Boudreau]

I'm not aware of any, no.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

Treasury Board is required to approve net-zero accelerator projects that receive more than $50 million.

How many emissions have been reduced to date through the approved projects?

[Annie Boudreau]

A good reference point is the departmental plan and departmental results report, where the information is provided for each of those programs.

[Dan Mazier, Conservative, Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB]

You do an audit on these programs. The whole idea of releasing the funds is to get outcomes. The Treasury Board is watching over that. That's what you gave us before, in your testimony.

Why don't you know the answer to that?