Government Operations Committee on Oct. 17th, 2024

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Have those numbers ever been audited?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I don't know. I would have to validate that.

What do you mean by audited? The companies that have been certified by the IBD would be part of these contracts, and these contracts constitute the numbers we identify that go towards the 5%.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

The question I'm looking at was raised by Mr. Bachrach. It's that these numbers—well, any number—won't really matter if they can't stand up to rigour. I'm just wondering if an independent review has been done, or even a review within the department, to see whether procurement is occurring in accordance with PSPC and Indigenous Services Canada.

[Joëlle Paquette]

For the contract itself, we manage whether the contractor is delivering the good or service and is meeting the requirements of the contract. The company would have been certified by Indigenous Services Canada and would be part of the IBD. That certification and the validation through the IBD allow us to give a contract to a company and count them against the 5% target.

[Philip Lawrence, Conservative, Northumberland—Peterborough South, ON]

Has your department stopped any contracts because of an issue with certification?

[Joëlle Paquette]

Not that I'm aware of. We would have to look into that.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. That is our time.

Maybe you can get back to us in writing with that.

[Joëlle Paquette]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We'll go to Mr. Bains for five minutes, and then we'll finish up with Mrs. Vignola and Mr. Bachrach.

Go ahead, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In a previous meeting, the committee received a letter from an organization, and it indicated that “with an effective Indigenous procurement system in place, the Government could make tremendous steps forward toward economic reconciliation with Indigenous peoples.”

In your view, what is the significance of achieving economic reconciliation in Canada?

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

Economic reconciliation is critically important. It's important for indigenous communities. It's also an opportunity for them to actively participate in federal procurement.

We're talking about quite significant numbers with the level of procurement activity. It's probably been mentioned that we look at the 5% target as a floor, not a ceiling. If we're able to achieve success, we're talking about significant levels of investment going to indigenous communities. It's evident that the impact would be transformational, so we think it's critically important to drive forward and see if we can make this target a reality.

As it's been mentioned, we are working with partners and working with businesses. It's a collective Government of Canada effort, but if we're able to make progress toward the 5% target, it will make changes.

At an individual enterprise level, our team has worked with an indigenous business called Creative Fire, which does really amazing work in the communications space. After working with our teams and Procurement Assistance Canada, it was able to apply for some of our instruments and, fortunately, got some success. Creative Fire certainly knows that with their business model, it's been quite incredible to increase the number of staff and have more of an impact. We can see positive impacts at the firm level and we think at the community level as well.

In my view, economic reconciliation is critically important.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you for that.

Locally, Boeing, in Richmond, British Columbia, made a significant investment of over $40 million. One of the suppliers brought in to provide the fabrication of machinery and national defence parts and supplies for our submarines was also one of the recipients. I think we've seen significant benefits locally in my region.

Can you expand a bit on how ensuring procurement opportunities for indigenous businesses helps achieve economic reconciliation in Canada? We've talked a lot about the 5% target, but have you witnessed anything in your departments where we've exceeded the 5% minimum threshold?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I can give one example: the Atlantic Science Enterprise Centre project. Within the procurement context, there are two large contracts for the Atlantic Science Enterprise Centre project that include indigenous participation. Through those two contracts in particular, we were able to exceed the 5%.

I don't have the total value of the contracts, but so far, through their efforts, those two contractors have provided close to $60 million, through subcontracting, to indigenous businesses. That's a good-news story.

We also know that through the Canadian dental care plan, Sun Life had a—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid I have to cut you off because we're running short on time.

Mrs. Vignola, please go ahead.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Paquette, I want to follow up a bit on what you just said and talk a bit about subcontractors. A number of people have mentioned that non-indigenous businesses use indigenous businesses as a front to get contracts. A while ago, a witness told us that it is sometimes necessary to go through a non-indigenous business to get a small part of the contract.

When an indigenous business is a subcontractor, do you use the full value of the contract or only the portion that goes to the indigenous business when calculating the value of contracts?

[Joëlle Paquette]

That's a very good question. I'm not sure of the answer, but I believe the portion that goes to the subcontracting company will be tallied in the 5%, not the total value of the contract. That said, the subcontractor can be considered only if it is certified by ISC. Only that subcontracted value can be included in the 5%.

I would have to verify that information, though.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Can you check and send us the answer in writing, please?

I'm going to go back to the report on meeting the 5% target. The report states that in 2022‑23, a total of 28 organizations had not met the 5% target. What is your department's role in helping organizations reach the target? I hesitate to talk about reprisals, but are there consequences for not meeting the target?

[Joëlle Paquette]

The target was set by ISC, not by PSPC. However, our department's role is to develop tools such as supply arrangements.

We can help organizations with these tools, some of which are used only by indigenous businesses. Then the other departments could use the tools to achieve their 5% target. We develop tools and contractual clauses. Really, it's the tools and—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you. I'm afraid that is our time.

Mr. Bachrach, could you finish off the day for us?

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll pick up where I left off in my last round of questioning.

Our witness from Procurement Assistance Canada indicated that his organization works closely with regional partners. I'm curious to know if, in the northwest B.C. context, he can share with us some of the partners his organization has worked with closely.

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

In our organization, we work with local organizations. One of the key partners we work with is the Council for the Advancement of Native Development Officers.

In terms of working directly with B.C., through our regional office we make sure that we're connecting locally with communities. If there is a requirement to provide a list of some of the specific organizations we work with, I'd be pleased to provide it.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Your regional office in British Columbia is located in Vancouver. Is that correct?

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

That is correct.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Vancouver is the biggest city, the biggest urban centre, and it is a long way away from the region that I represent. I'm just curious whether you work with PacifiCan, which has offices in northwest B.C., or with any local rural partners that are able to work on the ground with indigenous businesses in more rural parts of the province.

[Clinton Lawrence-Whyte]

One of the models we have is widely implemented in B.C. and across the country. As I mentioned before, one of our key indigenous partners is CANDO, the Council for the Advancement of Native Development Officers, and it speaks to the point that you raised. We don't have full reach on the ground everywhere, but we work with this association, this grouping, which has economic development professionals situated in the regions. In this partnership, which is unique, we share our learning instruments and tools, and we teach them how to deliver the kinds of supports we do. By working with CANDO, we're able to have individuals, in many cases in indigenous economic development organizations in the regions, work directly with the businesses that are close at hand.

One thing we've been doing as well is making use of distance and virtual technology to connect with our partners. Sometimes that doesn't have the exact impact we want, so we'll start with virtual to establish contacts and we'll make the trip when it's necessary to be on the ground and present with partners. We know there is value in dealing with someone face to face.

To pick up on the point you alluded to, we work very closely with regional development agencies to leverage their expertise.