Government Operations Committee on Oct. 17th, 2024

[Joëlle Paquette]

I am not able to answer that question. I don't know the workforce behind managing the IBD within Indigenous Services Canada. If other firms were involved in registration, I don't know how that would be managed. Those are questions probably best answered by Indigenous Services Canada.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

To go into the PSPC's supply manual, it states:

In support of PSIB, client departments may designate that a proportion of subcontracts through open procurement be reserved for Indigenous business, or that non-Indigenous suppliers are to be encouraged through the use of incentives - e.g., additional evaluation points to hire Indigenous businesses as subcontractors.

Can you explain to us what evaluation points are in the contracting process?

[Joëlle Paquette]

When we develop a procurement or request for proposal, we outline how we will evaluate a supplier, and points are associated with meeting certain criteria. As long as a company is able to outline how they will meet those criteria, we will associate points with their meeting them. We have to be fully transparent about how we're going to evaluate bids so that the RFP is fair, open and transparent to all bidders.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Are there are a set number of extra evaluation points that can be awarded for hiring an indigenous subcontractor?

[Joëlle Paquette]

There are. I think it's in a plan that they would incorporate in their contract, so yes, some points could be provided for having a subcontractor that's an indigenous firm.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Are they awarded by PSPC or the contracting department?

[Joëlle Paquette]

PSPC, when it's a common service provider, can do that on behalf of other government departments, or PSPC can do that, when we purchase on our own, when it's a client of the acquisitions program.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

The prime contractor is responsible to bind its subcontractors, in writing, to PSIB requirements, including requirements for the subcontractor to send information substantiating its compliance with the program. Who's responsible for enforcing these requirements, the prime contractor, ISC or PSPC?

[Joëlle Paquette]

The enforcement, I believe, is done by Indigenous Services Canada. We can always ask them to audit to make sure of what has been identified in the evaluation. When we provide the contract, if we require validation, we go to Indigenous Services Canada to do the audit.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

What measures are in place to ensure that all involved parties comply with these prerequisites? What actions are taken if a prime contractor or subcontractor does not meet the requirements set out?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please provide a brief answer because we're past our time.

[Joëlle Paquette]

There are some contractual clauses. If they are not meeting the requirements, at that point those contractual clauses come into play, and you either terminate or provide.... There might be remedies outlined in the procurement itself.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Bains.

We'll now go to Madam Vignola, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Paquette, according to the report on meeting the 5% target for 2022‑23, $1.6 billion in contracts were awarded to indigenous businesses, which was 6.27% of contracts. How much money does the Government of Canada spend annually on contracts, on average, for all businesses combined?

[Joëlle Paquette]

I believe the Government of Canada awards about $34 billion in contracts a year, including $24 billion in contracts through our department, Public Services and Procurement Canada.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm doing a quick calculation, and I see that $2 billion is 5.55% of $36 billion. That's still a long way from 6.27% of contracts. I was even being generous by adding $400 million to the $1.6 billion. I suspect that the value of contracts is being confused with the number of contracts. Is that the case?

[Joëlle Paquette]

If you're talking about what I put in my report, that's only contracts awarded by Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC. The $34 billion represents the total value of contracts awarded by the federal government. The $24 billion figure is the value of contracts awarded by PSPC, including contracts we award for other departments.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, I understand that, but the policy—

[Joëlle Paquette]

For example, 2.6% of our department's contracts were awarded to indigenous businesses in 2022‑23.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, but the policy applies to all organizations, not just your department.

[Joëlle Paquette]

It applies to all organizations, but gradually. There are some organizations, including my department, that started working towards that target as early as 2022, while others started working towards it later. There was a three-year deadline, until the end of fiscal 2024‑25, to meet the 5% procurement target for indigenous businesses.

I can tell you only about the progress made at PSPC, where we are working very hard to meet the target, maintain it and, if possible, exceed it.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

What I'm trying to point out is that there is a difference between the number of contracts and the value of the contracts, and the two concepts seem to be conflated. Is the policy about the total value of contracts or the total number of contracts?

[Joëlle Paquette]

It's related to the value of the contracts.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chair.