Government Operations Committee on Oct. 24th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Boulerice, please go ahead.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We recently learned that according to Public Services and Procurement Canada, the directory we've been discussing today lists about 2,900 companies. However, some estimates place the number of indigenous businesses in the country at nearly 60,000.

What could explain such a dramatic difference between those two figures?

[Gina Wilson]

I'm going to ask Ms. Sultan to answer that question, but I would first like to say that there are many lists in Canada. Our list is just one of them.

[Jessica Sultan]

To build on that, as Ms. Wilson has said, the indigenous business directory is one list. There are many others. For example, many of the modern treaty rights holders have their own lists of businesses that would be modern treaty rights holders in that comprehensive land claim area.

We're already working on the understanding that there is an environment of multiple lists, so they won't all necessarily be captured on the IBD. There are different locations where one would have to look.

We would like to augment the number of businesses that are contained in the list that the government uses for federal procurement purposes, absolutely, because there would be more access then to verified indigenous businesses for participation in federal procurement.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

In that case, what process will you use to increase that number?

[Keith Conn]

First of all, I'll just go back to the previous question on the 60,000. Yes, there are, I guess, approximately 60,000 indigenous businesses. Not all of them want to do business with government—they're doing fine in the oil sands and in other industries. However, those that are interested come to our directory to be part of the directory and to seek out opportunities for federal procurement in professional services, in indigenous learning, in general management and in IT services, etc., so there are businesses that focus on those lines of business, and they see the opportunity with the federal government.

In terms of promoting, we have a navigator service that we provide in person, online, with people interested in becoming part of the directory. We promote it. It's online, and it's on the web to increase participation. At the end of the day, it's their choice in terms of what they want to do and which list they want to be part of.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mrs. Block, please go ahead.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Earlier, Ms. Sultan, you testified that it is a minuscule number of contracts where businesses don't comply with the subcontracting requirements, and that these are outliers. However, you have repeatedly stated that you don't track subcontractors, and we have seen this borne out throughout government departments, as the documents they have submitted to this committee lack documentation on subcontractors. You even stated that the department was made aware of questionable factors in Dalian's case by media reports and by testimony at this committee. This implies that your department took no initiative in the case of Dalian to ensure they were meeting their requirements.

My question is this: How are you able to testify today that the vast majority of contracts comply with the subcontracting requirement, when your department does not monitor subcontracts and when other departments have made it clear that they do not monitor subcontracts either?

[Gina Wilson]

I would say that monitoring does occur. Tracking does occur. It is not done by our little unit at ISC; it is done by departments that are all across the country, all across town, which have that ability.

You are right that we do not track subcontracts. I understand that some may want an entity like PSPC, or ISC, or some central organization to track, monitor and continuously audit whatever number of contracts there are—almost 3,000—and thousands of these are running each day.

I don't know. If your study recommends that we do more tracking, monitoring and auditing, we will certainly consider this. However, we will also advise you of the cost of that, and we'll advise the government of the cost of that, because it would require hiring several more auditing firms, and many of those would be non-indigenous, I would add.

I would love to tell you, however, about a better alternative of what we think is an option going forward, which is indigenous participation plans.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I just want to go back to the comment you made about there being a minuscule number of companies that are not complying with the subcontracting rules or with the rules to ensure that they are subcontracting to indigenous businesses. Where are you getting that information?

[Gina Wilson]

I'm getting the information from the number of audits that we've been requested to do by departments, and those numbers have been very low. I believe indigenous businesses, for the most part, are honest business people. I believe that my departmental counterparts and the procurement officers who do their public service are generally trying to do their jobs.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you for that. I am glad you mentioned that the department conducts audits of its own. Could you please table with the committee a copy of all audits and associated reports done by your department from January 2021 to present?

[Gina Wilson]

I think we'll have to square that circle with the previous request from a member who asked for pretty much the same thing.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

I believe she asked for a list. I'm asking for the audits.

[Gina Wilson]

You're asking for the audits.

I will definitely get some advice as to what is releasable publicly or to the committee. If you can allow me to do that, I will be happy to provide that and be as transparent as possible. I need to consider privacy implications and access to information rules.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

On that note, Mr. Chair, could you perhaps provide us and Ms. Wilson with some advice on what is releasable to a committee?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Basically, you have to provide everything the committee calls for. If the committee asks for the audit, you can ask us to hang onto it and not release it, or you can just send it to us. The committee has the right to ask for those items.

If you want to get back to us in writing, perhaps on Monday, about what you'd like to do, we'd probably be fine with that.

[Gina Wilson]

That would be hugely appreciated.

I would say, though—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

In this case, it can be the audits with personal information taken out.

[Gina Wilson]

That would be more comfortable for me, for sure.

I will say, though, that some of the audits we have are still under way. They're not completed. I think it's fair to—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We're just looking for completed audits.

[Gina Wilson]

Okay. Thank you.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, we'll go over to you, sir.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to begin with this: As I understand it, Deputy Minister Wilson, your work was recognized, recently, with a Canadian Indspire Award.

Is that correct?