Evidence of meeting #148 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.
A video is available from Parliament.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Very well.
You say that the 5% goal is a minimum target. However, your own report on the 2022-23 period states that four organizations or departments failed to meet that target: the Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission—the CRTC, Elections Canada, Public Services and Procurement Canada, and the Treasury Board Secretariat.
Why have those departments and agencies failed to meet the minimum 5% target?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
There are probably a multitude of reasons, which I won't try to determine, for some of my colleagues and other departments. Every department is quite different. We're actually collecting data now, for 2023-24, from 96 departments and agencies, and we're hoping that the numbers have improved.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
With respect to those agencies and departments, do you have a strategy for them to meet their target during the next—
Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Yes. One role that Indigenous Services Canada and Public Services and Procurement Canada play—although I'll speak only for us—is in assisting departments with achieving the 5% if they are having challenges. One way we do that is by working to share the best practices that some of the highest-achieving departments use to achieve the 5%, and that's actually proven to be successful. Specifically, we have worked with, well, a number of departments that have seen success that way.
Conservative
October 24th, 2024 / 11:50 a.m.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I'm Laila Goodridge. I'm the member of Parliament for Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, the home of Alberta's oil sands. It's worth noting that, in 2019, oil sands companies did $2.4 billion in indigenous procurement, so it is possible.
I'm going to go back.... You mentioned that Dalian was removed from the indigenous business directory. Can you explain, specifically, why it was removed?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
Again, it was due to some of the stories that came up in the media. It was a matter of questioning some of the reports that we were hearing from testimony. I should add that, interestingly enough, it was not because they were not eligible under the directory. In fact, they demonstrated that they were eligible as an indigenous business, so it was due to other factors—questions that came up, particularly in testimony.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Just to clarify, the government still considers that an indigenous business.
Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
I will answer the question—
Conservative
Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
The business provided proof of indigeneity.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Thanks.
You talked about how you don't monitor the subcontractors, so you and departments don't really know.... Have you considered having a process in place to have an automatic audit if subcontracts are being utilized in any of these businesses?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I ask Jessica to chime in here, but there has not, at this point in time, been any consideration to increase tracking, monitoring, reporting and auditing. It can be considered.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
I come from the oil sands, where large contracts happen on a regular basis. Large contracts happen with indigenous businesses not because any government mandates them to do it, but because it's just good business. Some of the best businesses in the oil sands are indigenous businesses. They don't get the contracts because they're indigenous: They get the contracts because they are the best.
It really aggravates me that.... There are processes and best practices in contracting that are readily available, and the fact that the Government of Canada hasn't considered that, potentially, this is a loophole allowing non-indigenous people to benefit from what is supposed to be an indigenous procurement strategy really bothers me.
Have you looked at best practices in contracting to ensure that subcontracts are being utilized properly?
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Can you confidently say that indigenous subcontractors are getting those jobs?
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
I can confidently say that, for the absolute, clear, far outstanding majority, it is the case. There have been some discrepancies because of some of the audits and the questions that have come up, but it is for quite a minuscule number.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
How many businesses, other than Dalian, were removed from the indigenous business directory, either because they didn't qualify for some reason, like Dalian, or because you discovered that they weren't indigenous?
Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
I don't have the answer for the entirety of the time, since the beginning of PSIB in 1995. I can tell you that, let's say if we take the past year, there were definitely more than just Dalian that were removed for various reasons.
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
Could you possibly get us a list of all of the businesses that were removed—let's pick a date—since 2015, and provide that in writing to the committee, by Friday? That's all the businesses that were removed either because they were determined to not be indigenous or for other reasons, and could you specify those reasons? Could we have that by Friday at the end of the business day?
Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
We are able to provide that information, but not by the end of tomorrow. I would like, respectfully, to request more time.
Conservative
Deputy Minister, Department of Indigenous Services
What's the usual timeline?
Conservative
Laila Goodridge Conservative Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB
We have a short period of time that we're looking at this. If we have 21 days, it might be outdated by the time we get to it. We should have this information, so that we can continue. This is critical.
I think it's shocking that we found out only today that Dalian was removed. I think Canadians would like to know some of this information.
