Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Much has been said about the condition of apartment 12E at 550 Park Avenue. It has also been said that $2.6 million needed to be invested to renovate it. From what I understand, that was just the beginning.

I am the happy owner of a more than century-old house, and I can tell you, once you start on renovations, there are strangely a lot more that become necessary.

We have heard about problems with the hot water. Was the central heating system hot water? Was this one of the items that was causing a problem?

There was also talk about the electrical system. Was there a danger of fire?

Was water leaking in this apartment, were there problems with the flooring?

Exactly what were the problems?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for the question.

In 2017, as I explained, we wrote a very detailed report about the condition of the asset that came to nearly 100 pages. Everything you cited was included in the report, Ms. Vignola.

The heating, ventilation and air conditioning system was one of the items where there were deficiencies. The electrical system was almost at the end of service life and needed to be replaced. The same was true for the plumbing.

Since 2020, 2022, we had known that all the items you cited were among the items that had reached the end of service life.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Has that report been provided to the committee? If not, can you send it to us?

I have not finished compiling all my data.

[Robin Dubeau]

Yes, I'm going to send it to you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You had a few more seconds.

Mr. Boulerice, welcome back, sir. The floor is yours.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Dubeau, Mr. Hounzangbé and Ms. Guay, thank you for being with us today to discuss these issues, which are generating a lot of interest.

In the Westminster model, one of the main roles of Parliament is to oversee spending, somewhat like a watchdog. It must make sure that taxpayers' money is being invested wisely. That is more or less what we are doing today: We are doing our job.

As parliamentarians, we have to make sure that the public service and our diplomats and representatives have the tools and equipment they need to do their work, particularly when it comes to foreign relations and diplomacy.

Canada actually is a G7 country; we are not going to host people in a broom closet. We have to be able to do our work and present Canada in a professional light.

What do you think the consul general in New York needs?

How does having this function in a metropolis like that benefit Quebeckers and Canadians?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, I am going to say a bit more about the tools we need to do our job. I am not quite as qualified to speak to the value of the work the consul general is called upon to do. I know that the consul general and his deputy and the geographic group have testified before the committee regarding the value of having a consul general in New York.

A lot of trade goes on in that city. It is a crucial hub for a number of states. This serves Canada and Canadians. Remember that 200,000 or 300,000 Canadians live in the New York region. It is therefore important that the consul general's official residence be well equipped for both trade purposes and consular services. This is a very large mission.

This brings us to what the consul general needs. As I explained earlier, an exhaustive needs analysis is done based on the expected hospitality or representational functions. That is the public part. The property also serves as a private residence. We have to think about how the apartment can be divided between the public and private parts. That is an important factor.

There is also security, which is a major factor. We want to be sure the property is safe for the consul general. There are also other factors considered, such as accessibility and the environment. For example, the building has to meet environmental standards.

A lot of factors have to be considered in choosing an official residence. This is codified in a manual that explains exactly what a consul general could expect.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

In your presentation, you said there were accessibility problems at the former official residence.

I would like to know a bit more about what caused problems at that property. Did this justify moving out and buying a new residence?

[Robin Dubeau]

I thank the member, Mr. Chair.

That is an excellent question.

We have a very large portfolio consisting of 2,500 assets. It is important to note that since 2021, we have had to comply with the Accessible Canada Act. We therefore did an assessment of our assets in relation to the new legislation. When apartment 12E at 550 Park Avenue was assessed, it did not meet the standards.

I will turn the floor over to Mr. Hounzangbé. He will be able to explain what it was that caused problems.

[Franck Hounzangbé]

Thank you, Mr. Dubeau.

Thank you for the question, Mr. Boulerice.

As Mr. Dubeau said, the accessibility rules were introduced in 2021. Two factors in particular presented problems at the former official residence.

First, several steps had to be climbed to get directly to the apartment. This kind of problem could not have been solved as part of a renovation.

Second, the visitor washrooms for the representational areas did not allow for wheelchair access. That could have been solved, but it would have called for reconfiguring the room, and that would have been expensive.

We therefore made the decision to relocate the consul general's official residence.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

In any event, the purchase of this new residence results in an asset for the federal government.

This residence may eventually be sold on the market someday, after a certain lifespan, which we do not yet know.

Is that correct?

[Robin Dubeau]

That's true.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you.

In general, what is the life of an official residence? Five years, ten years?

In Canada, are we in line with the norm when it comes to the purchase and sale of residences abroad that are meant for this type of function?

[Robin Dubeau]

I thank the member for his question.

I believe your question is about the useful life of a building.

We owned the last building for over 60 years. In the real estate world, the useful life of a building is estimated to be 60 to 80 years.

The one we have just bought is not yet a year old, because it was just renovated, so it is in very good shape for the next 50 or 60 years.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Very good.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, sir.

We'll go to Mrs. Block, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.

This is quite an incredible study that we've undertaken in regard to the $9-million condominium that was purchased for Mr. Clark.

My questions will start with you, Mr. Dubeau. Ms. Nicholson said that she was given the information contained in the two emails sent to the minister's office by members of your team. This information stated that Tom Clark was instrumental in the process of the purchase of the new official residence. Which one of you was responsible for sending her the information that was used in her memos?

[Robin Dubeau]

Responding to our chief of staff or deputy ministers is always a priority. We strive to provide the information very quickly in as much detail as possible. It's a collective effort. In the case of the first question that we received on June 14, we undertook, Mr. Hounzangbé and I, to produce the information that was required, and I relayed it to Ms. Nicholson myself.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Okay, thank you.

There was a report in Politico that stated that:

Concerns raised: Two months after Clark’s appointment, the Consulate General of Canada in New York notified Global Affairs that the unit at 550 Park Ave. — the official residence since 1961 — was “not suitable” for hosting, or for living and “required immediate replacement,” documents show. “The current [Consulate General New York, Head of Mission] expressed concerns regarding the completion … of the kitchen and refurbishment project and indicated the unit was not suitable to be the [Consulate General New York] accommodations and it does not have an ideal floor plan for [Consulate General New York] representational activities,” documents from a May 2023 report show.

Your testimony here this morning is somewhat contradictory to the documents that have been supplied from Global Affairs Canada after an ATIP request. Who in your department received this information?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, I'm happy to bring some clarity. As I explained, the statement of investment requirement is a document that is done by a lot of subject matter experts. It is led by the real property team in headquarters. It involves input from many stakeholders. One of them will be the mission that will be required to provide feedback and, in providing that feedback, what you have quoted there was captured inside the statement of requirement and was put in the document as the mission feedback to assess their requirements.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Even in the letter that we just received from Mr. Clark, he admitted to making observations of this nature. He has come back now, after we've put forward a motion to have him appear before committee. We've received a letter in which he now says he made certain observations about the unsuitability of the accommodations.

What you're suggesting is that none of this reflects any of the concerns that he raised with Global Affairs Canada. Is that what you're asserting?

[Robin Dubeau]

Mr. Chair, what I would say is that he may have shared opinions with his staff in New York. I wouldn't be privy to that information. Our staff, in putting together the statement of investment requirement, captured the feedback from the mission.

I wouldn't be able to comment on the opinion he would have shared with his staff.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Embedded in the emails that came from Emily Nicholson, it states very clearly that he had influence in determining the purchase of the new residence. He had significant influence in the decision that was made.

I am wondering how you can continue to deny what has been put forward in a number of documents that were ATIPed and indicate that he did, in fact, raise concerns and that he misled this committee when he provided the testimony he did, which was that he had never raised anything with anyone, ever. Now we have three documents that would suggest the opposite. I am deeply concerned that we continue to hear the same kind of push-back from members of Global Affairs Canada, when we actually have the documents in front of us, saying something completely different.

Again, I would go back to the testimony of Ms. Nicholson. She indicated that he had influence in the decision-making in her first email. The second email came on the heels of a request to have him appear before the committee, saying, “No, that's not true.”

Who told her to put that in the email?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give a brief response, please. We're past our time.