Evidence of meeting #153 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was businesses.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Keith Conn  Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Jessica Sultan  Director General, Economic Policy Development, Department of Indigenous Services
Robin Dubeau  Acting Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Real Property and Infrastructure Solutions, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Franck Hounzangbé  Director General, Policy and Planning, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Clerk of the Committee  Mr. Marc-Olivier Girard

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 153 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates—the mighty OGGO—truly the only committee that matters.

Before we start, everyone, I will remind you to please keep your headphones away from your microphone so that we can protect the hearing of our very valued interpreters, who are working hard with us today.

We'll start off.

Welcome, Minister Hajdu. Welcome back to OGGO. It's been a few years since we've had you here. I assume you have an opening statement for us.

11:05 a.m.

Thunder Bay—Superior North Ontario

Liberal

Patty Hajdu LiberalMinister of Indigenous Services

I do.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Please go ahead. The floor is yours.

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I appreciate the invitation to come to OGGO. I think this is an important conversation about how we can focus our energies as a government and as a country on growing indigenous economy opportunities. Of course, today we're here to talk about the procurement strategy for indigenous business.

Investing in indigenous communities and building up indigenous businesses and entrepreneurs benefit all Canadians. According to the 2022 “National Indigenous Economic Strategy for Canada”, the continued exclusion of indigenous peoples costs the Canadian economy about $27.7 billion every year. The National Indigenous Economic Development Board found that closing the existing employment gap could help lift over 150,000 indigenous people out of poverty.

Since 2015, we've been focused on strengthening self-determination and building capacity so that indigenous people and businesses have the tools and resources to fully participate in the economy on their own terms. For example, the government increased education funding by 80%, helping more kids access high-quality education right at home. Over the last decade, BDC found that expanded access to education has led to a 49% increase in the number of indigenous people aged 25 to 64 in full-time employment. That's right; there was a full 49% increase.

The indigenous economy has the potential to grow from $32 billion to $100 billion in the next five years, and leaders like Tabatha Bull from the CCIB have been clear that procurement is a key part of hitting that target. Since the 5% minimum target was implemented, the value of contracts going to indigenous businesses increased by $1.5 billion.

Now, while I've only been the minister responsible for this file since 2021, our government has been engaging with indigenous partners from across the country for years. In particular, I'd like to highlight the ways that the department has engaged with indigenous partners to improve procurement procedures.

We are transforming the procurement strategy with indigenous partners. We are all focused on improving policies, safeguards and processes. They have told us what will work and what does not, and we are listening. We're also actively working with partners on how best to transfer the role of defining and verifying indigenous businesses to indigenous peoples. Transferring the definition and the registration of indigenous businesses from the government to indigenous peoples will help us reach the ultimate goal of increased indigenous economic activity.

Parliamentarians need to work together, including through studies just like this one, to identify the existing barriers to economic reconciliation and to identify new ways to break them down. Programs like the PSIB are getting us closer to a Canada that maximizes its true economic potential. The PSIB is opening doors for indigenous participation, and historically, those doors have been intentionally closed. Laws like the Indian Act systemically excluded indigenous peoples to the point of being “legislated out of the economy”, as described by many indigenous leaders.

Members of the committee, I thank you for the opportunity to reinforce the federal government's commitment to building Canada's economy in partnership with indigenous peoples, and I look forward to our conversation today.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks very much.

We'll start with Mr. Genuis.

Before we start, though, everyone.... We're normally pretty loose watching the clock, but because we only have one hour with the minister, I'm going to stick exactly to the six minutes, five minutes, and two and a half minutes today, so please pay attention to your time clock.

Mr. Genuis, go ahead, please.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Minister, should Randy Boissonnault still be in cabinet?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I can tell you that the business that Mr. Boissonnault was involved in was never on the indigenous business directory.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Do you think he should still be in cabinet?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

That's not a decision for me to make, Mr. Genuis.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay.

It's interesting that you're not saying yes. Do you endorse his conduct as minister?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I can tell you that Mr. Boissonnault's business was never listed on the indigenous business directory.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

He's a cabinet colleague of yours. You work together closely, I would presume. I ask if you think he should stay in cabinet, and you're declining to answer that.

Do you endorse his conduct as minister? What do you think of what he has done?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I can tell you that GHI, the business that Mr. Boissonnault was co-owner of, has never been on the IBD.

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay. I think you're saying a lot by not saying a lot, Minister, so I'll move on to my next question.

Is Global Health Imports still eligible to receive government contracts?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I believe they are, but as I said, they are not part of the indigenous business directory. I can't answer with an affirmative.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay. They represented themselves as indigenous-owned. They did so falsely. They are still eligible to receive government contracts. Do you think there should be penalties for companies that misrepresent their indigenous identity? Should they be prevented from bidding further on government contracts?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

In fact, there are penalties for fraudulent behaviour. I would hope that anybody who is procuring on behalf of the Government of Canada is careful about which businesses they procure from to make sure that proper business practices are followed. Certainly, the Government of Canada has measures it can take if it's found that businesses have acted fraudulently, and it should.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Okay. You mentioned that there are consequences for fraudulent activity, which I hope would include misrepresentations around indigenous identity. Did Global Health Imports, in your view as the indigenous services minister, engage in fraudulent activity?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

I can't make that determination, but I can tell you that the office of supplier integrity and compliance with PSPC can take steps, such as banning a business from future—

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

I'm sorry. I'll just jump in. I know that there are options available.

Okay. You don't want to rule specifically on the case of Global Health Imports. Let's take a hypothetical case, a hypothetical case where you have a company that's involved in health imports, let's say, and owned by two people. Hypothetically, one of them happens to be a minister of the Crown. They are bidding on government contracts and, in the process, claim to be an indigenous-owned company. That claim turns out to be completely false.

If that hypothetical company, in the process of pursuing government contracts, falsely claimed to be indigenous-owned, would that be considered fraudulent activity?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

It could possibly be, but that would be a decision by the office of supplier integrity and compliance. I don't run that particular organization.

I would say that, from my perspective, when there are allegations of fraud, it's very serious. I think departments have a responsibility to ensure that they're procuring from companies that are not fraudulent.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Right. Just definitionally, it would seem that the definition of “fraud” is misrepresenting the facts in some way in order to achieve a commercial advantage. It's pretending something is true when it's not in order to achieve a commercial advantage.

You have a company that pretended to be indigenous-owned when it wasn't indigenous-owned. The purpose of that pretense was clearly to increase its chances of getting government contracts that it wouldn't have otherwise gotten. Is that fraud?

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

What I would say is that I think we're saying the same thing, that the process of ensuring—

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB

Great.

I'm sorry. Go on.

Patty Hajdu Liberal Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON

The process of ensuring that people claiming indigeneity should be...with integrity. What we want is indigenous economic success, so I think we agree. I think any time there's fraud in terms of allegations of identity, that is a very serious infraction.

What happens next is up to places like the office of supplier integrity, but I can tell you that on our side, at Indigenous Services Canada, we take integrity around indigeneity seriously. Although it is a challenging—