Government Operations Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Really quickly, there are over 30 partners. I won't read them out, Mr. Chair, as that will take quite a long time, but we will distribute the list of the partners that have been involved in the consultations on how we move forward with the list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Ms. Blaney, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the minister and her team for being here with us today to discuss this really important issue.

I really appreciate what you said about making sure that there's a process so that you can pass some of this on to an indigenous organization to do the work. I'm just wondering, though, if there is any discussion internally about recognizing that indigenous people should be the people who decide who their membership is. What does that process look like?

I expect it to be a bumpy road, but the one thing I have concerns about is that the decision isn't being made. It's just sort of a discussion that keeps happening.

What work is actually happening to get that to the communities who had it in the first place and need it to be returned?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Do you mean that the lists were in the communities to begin with?

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It's for the nations to decide who their membership is.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

This is ultimately the goal of decolonization. It's for the federal government to be out of the space of defining who is indigenous.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

What's blocking that process from happening?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think you're hearing concerns—and I think they're rightful concerns—from a variety of partners about people claiming indigeneity or claiming connection to community without necessarily being indigenous or of indigenous descent. In fact, that's a part of this study, and I think this study is incredibly valuable.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

I'm sorry to interrupt.

What I'm talking about is indigenous communities deciding who is indigenous and taking the government out of it completely. I understand what the intention is, but I'm wondering what the process is for that to actually happen.

It's something that keeps coming up in government after government, and it's not getting done. I'm wondering what part is—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would dispute that it's not getting done.

We've done quite a bit, as you know, on sex-based discrimination and restoring people's—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Excuse me, but you're still keeping it within the government. This is a colonial system. The longer we keep the identity of indigenous people decided by a colonial system.... That's the problem.

It needs to go back to indigenous communities. They should be the ones deciding how that's going to work and what kinds of processes they would have around identifying that. I understand some of the complexity, but I think indigenous communities understand it.

I think Mr. Conn is going to respond.

[Keith Conn]

Thanks for the question.

As it currently exists, we have, for example, the Inuit, who determine their membership—not Canada—in terms of land claim beneficiaries. The Métis nations and all their governing boards have criteria for membership. They determine the membership, not Canada. The same applies to first nations generally. The first nations either use the Indian Act system in terms of registration, or they manage their own membership codes for membership. They determine their membership.

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

It's still going through the Government of Canada. You know the process as well as I do.

[Keith Conn]

The liberty to remove themselves from the Indian Act is there, in order to manage their own membership rolls at their discretion.

I will follow up on a previous question. At this time, as a department, we are currently engaging with first nations leadership, communities and elders to find solutions for the second-generation cut-off as we speak. Those discussions are ongoing. Those are the—

[Rachel Blaney, NDP, North Island—Powell River, BC]

Thank you for that. I hear what you're saying.

I will respectfully say that the system is still inheld by the government. This is how it works. We know that indigenous people trying to fight these issues often have no choice but to go to the federal government to get support. Often, the federal government says, “I don't want to touch this”, because they don't want to be part of the identity process. However, they are also still holding the reins. My concern is this: Until that is done, it makes all of these other systems continue to falter. What that does is pit indigenous people against indigenous people, which is not very helpful. It also means that fraudulent claims are blocking legitimate indigenous businesses from finding those opportunities, because other people are using people or putting forward things that are not true.

I think it is incredibly important that this be stepped out of. Until it's gone— until indigenous communities and indigenous processes are in place—we're going to continue to see these things.

Minister, you talked about the fact that it is fraudulent to pretend you're of indigenous identity, and you talked about penalties. Can you talk a bit about what that looks like, and whether there is something actually being done to make people accountable? We're seeing more and more people pretending they are of indigenous identity, which I think is very interesting and concerning. Actually, in a lot of ways, it's pretty easy for indigenous communities to identify.

I'm wondering what the penalties are. How do you work with indigenous communities that have had people claim they belong to them, but don't? How do you support them as well?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thanks.

That's the flip side. Indigenous communities often feel threatened by new people who come in and claim connection to a community—sometimes through issues of the second-generation cut-off, quite frankly. That's why the study is so important. Some chiefs have said that people appear to claim membership. In fact, as leaders of the community, they don't recognize the lineage or connection.

I think you're also right that all of this is—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize, Minister. That is our time.

We're going to Mrs. Block for five minutes.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome to all of you joining us here today.

Minister, we have heard repeatedly from indigenous groups that the majority of the money the government claims is going to indigenous companies is actually going to shell companies. We recently read in the news of a great example of this: the company owned by Randy Boissonnault, even though GHI was not listed in the indigenous business directory. You made mention of that, but your departmental officials know differently, I think. They agreed they are still eligible to receive funding from ISC.

We've also heard that there are few to no consequences for companies that pretend to be indigenous. I want to quote Shannin Metatawabin, the CEO of the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association. He stated that there are very few penalties, and that “There need to be penalties, for sure.” He went on to say, “It's criminal behaviour to conduct fraud, so we have to take other steps and demonstrate to the world and to Canada that those actors who are engaging in this activity don't use this window and this program to access the federal government in a bad way.”

Do you agree that it's criminal behaviour and that there should be penalties?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I think we're saying the same thing, in that indigenous business procurement is a very critical aspect of Canada's economic growth. We have to take it seriously and—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Minister, I asked a very direct question.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm going to give you a very direct answer.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Then I would ask you to get to that answer, please.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Great. As I was saying, that's why it's so important that we ensure that there is no fraud in the space of claiming indigeneity.

Now, as you know, Indigenous Services Canada—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Minister, my question was this: Do you believe it's criminal behaviour when a non-indigenous company claims to be indigenous in order to steal money from indigenous-owned companies through the set-aside?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I would say that fraud is fraud. We do have an office that can look into claims of fraudulent behaviour and can apply a variety of penalties. I can't specifically give a general sweeping statement because, of course, different companies have different circumstances. However, I would expect that anyone who's contracting through the federal government would ensure that the laws of the land are upheld, including ensuring that fraud is not rewarded.