Government Operations Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you.

Randy Boissonnault is a cabinet minister in the Government of Canada. He's your colleague. He falsely claimed to be indigenous in order to steal money set aside for indigenous-owned businesses. As the Minister of Indigenous Services, will you commit to holding your colleague to account for running a company that falsely claimed to be indigenous?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I just want to reiterate that any false claims of indigeneity hurt the goal that I think you are obviously in favour of, which is to increase indigenous economic activity in this country. I would say—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

As the Minister of Indigenous Services, what will you do to hold your cabinet colleague to account for trying to defraud the Government of Canada by claiming to have an indigenous-owned business when it wasn't?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I think I've been clear that Mr. Boissonnault's company has never been on the list and—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

That's not the question I'm asking. His actions speak for themselves. He claimed to be indigenous. He claimed to be running an indigenous business in order to access the set-aside that was meant for indigenous-owned businesses. Will you join other members of Parliament in calling for his resignation?

This file falls directly under your authority. If you can go back to the indigenous communities in your riding and tell them that he should not be held to account and that what he did was just fine, then I think they will have something to say about that.

You are the Minister of Indigenous Services. You have ministerial accountability. When you know for a fact that one of your colleagues has defrauded or has attempted to defraud the Government of Canada by claiming to have an indigenous-owned business for the sole purpose of accessing something that they shouldn't have access to, I think you have a duty to call that member to account, especially when it falls under your jurisdiction as a minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I'm really excited that we're talking about my riding—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

—but my time is up, so I won't won't get to share with you about my incredible riding.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I have to interrupt. That is your time.

We are going to Mrs. Atwin, and I'm sure you might be able to give a response during her time.

Go ahead, Mrs. Atwin, for five minutes.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

It's always good to see you in committee, Minister, as well as our important officials.

Would you like to speak about your wonderful riding and answer that question?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Just for a few moments. In the current iteration of my riding, there are 12 first nations in my riding. In the new riding set-up, I'll have another seven first nations in northern Ontario. I rely on my riding quite a bit, actually. In particular, many chiefs in my riding—Chief Mushquash and and Chief Michano, for example—have given me great advice about how to hold this very colonial portfolio with the utmost respect for first nations, so I'm very grateful for their advice.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

You mentioned the criteria for being listed in the indigenous business directory. Can you speak to some of the checks and balances that exist to ensure that process has integrity?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Absolutely. I have a whole list here of what the department does in order to ensure that people are on the list. I think I mentioned earlier that every two years an audit is conducted of the entire list to make sure that people's credentials have not changed in some way or that the corporate structure has not changed in some way. As you know, increasingly, this is a good sign that corporations are growing, that they're changing and that they are acquiring other corporations. All of that must be verified on the list.

Of course, if a business is found to be non-compliant, then it is removed, and it can't compete for any contracts through the indigenous business directory list. Of course, there are a number of pre-award audits that, in fact since December 2023, led to the removal of two businesses from the list. There are a number of post-award audits currently under way. Those are conducted by third party auditors to make sure that we are really protecting the integrity of the goal of the program, which is to increase Canada's GDP and business economic development for indigenous peoples.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

Thank you.

You mentioned that, in 2019, there was a cleanup of the list. Did the eligibility change, or was it just a process for the department to look back and make sure there was integrity?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It was really a process of looking back and making sure that integrity was still there and that the list was as refreshed as we could possibly make it. As I said, oftentimes, people start off in one business formation and may acquire partners or other corporations. This is why the audit every two years is very important. It's so that we can understand how companies are changing over time.

I would say most companies are good actors. They will tell us when things are changing and keep their information up to date. I think all colleagues around this table are very diligently working on ensuring the economic success of indigenous businesses, and we have to do that by preserving and holding close the integrity of the process.

[Jenica Atwin, Liberal, Fredericton, NB]

We know this largely targets individual businesses or entrepreneurs. It could be tribal councils as well. It also impacts the communities.

Can you speak to what the knock-on effects are of investing in indigenous businesses? What are those larger economic impacts for communities?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's such an important piece of this story. It's the growth of not only indigenous business but Canada's GDP through economic activity.

We've often talked about the cost of keeping people out. In fact, there's a lot of study around the continued exclusion. It's estimated that keeping people out of the economy costs Canada's economy $27.7 billion each year. That, to me, is just a dollars and cents reason, never mind any other reason for supporting indigenous economic success.

I note you're from the east coast. There are a lot of very successful businesses on the east coast that are run by indigenous peoples. I imagine you see that impact in your own community.

I'm from northern Ontario. The CEDC in northern Ontario has partnered with a number of different first nations organizations to conduct a study of the economic impact benefit of indigenous businesses in northern Ontario. There are older studies that estimate huge amounts of revenue for non-indigenous communities that have a high degree of indigenous economic activity.

Exclusion is really expensive. The fiscally smart thing to do is make sure that people have this opportunity.

The last thing I'll say is that it's exciting when I visit first nations that have corporations that are benefiting their communities. Many first nations, for example, are now holding their own contracting and construction companies.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. That is our time, Minister.

Go ahead, Mrs. Vignola.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Hajdu, until very recently, the children of an indigenous woman and a non-indigenous man were considered non-indigenous. That was the way it was for 50 to 70 years.

As I recall, and this might not be correct, I think it was part of section 6 of the Indian Act that was finally repealed. In the case of an indigenous man who had children with a non-indigenous woman, on the other hand, the children were considered indigenous.

It can be complicated for those children of indigenous women who are now recognized—but were not in the past—and who want to own a business that is recognized as being indigenous. It can be complicated because, as you said, there are various lists. The solution might be to keep various lists.

Why couldn't there be just one list, drawn from your partners' lists, as you refer to them, assuming that the partners would provide updated lists that truly represent their community?

That would put an end to situations such as those of children who are recognized or not, as the all-powerful federal government pleases.

Moreover, a witness who appeared before the committee, Philip Ducharme from the Canadian Council for Aboriginal Business, said that its list, along with the list from various other organizations, was not even recognized as valid even though it is a list of indigenous organizations.

So how can we discuss this honestly and thoroughly in order to reach a consensus if we don't recognize what indigenous businesses and organizations do?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, I think the study this committee is doing is going to be very helpful in identifying alternative pathways to making sure that we keep the integrity of the indigenous business procurement strategy intact. I think we're all saying the same thing. We want indigenous businesses to succeed. We want indigenous people to have control over identifying who is indigenous, and we want the government, ultimately, to get out of the business of identifying indigeneity.

The challenge will be to make sure we do so in a way that doesn't make it more difficult for people to procure from indigenous businesses but really keeps that same system of being able to quickly identify indigenous businesses to reach the target.

I have to say, we've done incredible work as a government over the last 10 years to meet the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I apologize, Minister, but that is—

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I have exceeded my time.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

We only have two and a half minutes, I'm afraid.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

No worries. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Blaney, please go ahead.