Government Operations Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Let me jump in here. I would hope that the Prime Minister would take that integrity seriously and fire this minister from cabinet.

In the time that I have left, Minister, are there any other companies owned by Liberal cabinet ministers or MPs, former MPs or Liberal-appointed senators who are on the indigenous business list?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

That's a great question. I don't know the answer to that. We can commit to checking that out for you and getting the information back.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay. Thank you. I think the committee would agree that we're interested in receiving, in the usual timeline, the names of any companies on the indigenous business list that are owned by Liberal MPs, cabinet ministers, appointed senators or former MPs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Battiste, you have six minutes, please.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Patty, for joining us.

Minister, we heard from Joanna Bernard, regional chief in New Brunswick. There are a lot of complexities involved in indigenous identity. She mentioned the challenges around the second-generation cut-off where, if you have children outside of people registered under the Indian Act for two successive generations, you lose your status as an Indian. There's a definite cut-off point for first nations or status Indians in Canada.

However, when we're talking about Inuit and Métis, there isn't that definition in place that we can look to. In fact, the Supreme Court of Canada said in the Daniels case that there was no consensus definition for what it is to be Métis, nor need there be.

During the study of Bill C-53, we heard that there were a lot of people who believe that, if you have indigenous and European ancestry, you're a Métis, but we know that's not the recognized definition from the Métis National Council.

When we look at this, at indigenous identity and the overall job of government to try to figure out who should be eligible and who shouldn't be eligible, do we have help from any organizations that can help guide government? It's pretty clear in UNDRIP, which is law, under article 33 that nations want the ability to determine who their own citizens are. That's part of why we're working with the AFN on the second-generation cut-off.

I'm wondering if you can speak to, first, the kind of outside help we are getting from indigenous organizations to help clarify these very muddy waters when it comes to people thinking they might be indigenous because they have some mixed ancestry somewhere in their family lineage. How do we educate Canadians as to what the definitions are of the different first nations, Inuit and Métis in Canada?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry; I'm going to interrupt.

Before you proceed—and I've stopped the clock—I understand that there are some people in the room taking photos. Please, that's not allowed. Thank you very much.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, MP Battiste. You've touched on something that I think is essentially very sensitive and a legacy of a colonial system that was designed to divide people into categories of indigenous and non-indigenous. The challenge is that, of course, those definitions evolve.

You mentioned a second-generation cut-off, and you would know, as one of the MPs heavily invested in the study that's going on right now, that even the issue of the second-generation cut-off is a sensitive issue for the families impacted but also for the communities impacted.

There is criteria for inclusion on the indigenous business directory. I can read it out here, but I'm sure you already understand that as part of your study right now.

We are working with first nations partners and business partners, in particular the NACCA, the CCIB, ITK, the Métis Nation and various different Métis nations that are not part of the Métis Nation of Canada. These are the commitments we've made as a government to continue to have these complicated conversations with indigenous people as they define for themselves their memberships. I think it is an important conversation for indigenous people to have, but it's also important for Canadians to understand that it isn't as clear-cut as some would like to think or some would like to have it be, quite clearly.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

We heard from Regional Chief Joanna Bernard that this was one of the things that was a concern for her. I offered to the AFN that they submit something to this committee that clarified where they stood on indigenous identity. I'm wondering if your department has received any kind of resolution from AFN stating where they would like to see this conversation go next.

You're right. The first nations I've talked to across Canada do not want a government committee or department stating who isn't a member of their communities. I think you've said that. I agree with it.

How do we best manage that situation when you have communities saying that they don't want the colonial mistakes of the past to continue but, rather, they want to be a part of the solution? How are we doing that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

First of all, do you want to speak to the AFN resolution, Keith?

[Keith Conn, Assistant Deputy Minister, Lands and Economic Development, Department of Indigenous Services]

No.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

All right.

I will just say, first of all, that what we are doing is working with a variety of different indigenous organizations, including the AFN, to look at ways the government can transfer the responsibility for indigenous procurement, the indigenous business directory, to indigenous organizations. So far, as you would know, there isn't a consensus yet.

I've been thinking a lot about consensus in this space. There often isn't a consensus in Parliament, as you know, on legislation, on approaches. I think that sometimes the federal government looks for consensus in indigenous places or indigenous spaces in an unrealistic or maybe an unfair way.

We are working with partners right now about how best to transfer the responsibility for indigeneity and proof of indigeneity without driving towards a one-list solution. That may be part of the evolution of how this goes, simply because, as I've gotten to know the partners, it appears that consensus may not be feasible in this space. That is a reality with such a diverse group of indigenous people across the country.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Yes, and we've definitely seen—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's our time.

[Jaime Battiste, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Okay. I'll get it in another round.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Vignola, go ahead, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

In recent months, certain businesses have claimed they were indigenous when they were not.

Madam Minister, when you did your audits, how many businesses did you find that were not truly indigenous?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Every two years, the department audits the indigeneity of businesses, just because businesses transform quite a bit in between audits. In 2022, 1,100 indigenous businesses were removed from the indigenous business directory as part of a cleanup of businesses that were registered before 2019.

I could, maybe, turn to Keith to speak about those.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

What documents were requested to prove that those 1,122 businesses in that directory were no longer indigenous businesses?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Let me get the list. It says:

Evidence considered for registration on the Indigenous Businesses Directory of being an Indigenous person includes, but is not limited to:

Indian registration in Canada

citizenship with the Manitoba Métis Federation, the Northwest Territory Métis Nation, or a Governing Member of the Métis National Council, including: the Métis Nation Saskatchewan; the Métis Nation of Alberta; the Métis Nation British Columbia and the Métis Nation of Ontario

membership in an affiliate of the Congress of Aboriginal Peoples, or other recognized Indigenous organization in Canada

acceptance as an Indigenous person by an established Indigenous community in Canada

enrolment or entitlement to be enrolled pursuant to a comprehensive land claim agreement, or membership or entitlement to membership in a group with an accepted comprehensive claim

There are those criteria. There is documentation required for each of those claims.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Could you send the committee the criteria in question?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Yes, I will do that.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

There is a big issue right now involving control of the indigenous business directory. You also touched on this earlier. The question is who should be monitoring it, verifying whether a business is indigenous or not.

In my humble opinion, it is certainly not for us to tell a first nation whether or not it is a first nation. It is up to them to determine who its members are and which businesses are theirs.

You said you were looking for a consensus. I would like to know a bit more about transferring control of the directory.

Ultimately, what kind of monitoring would there be and under what conditions would it be monitored?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

It is true that it is hard to reach a consensus. The government can make other choices regarding the partners. There could for instance be separate lists for each category.

Right now, we're still in discussion with indigenous partners about the best way to do this.

For example, maybe each partner could have its own list. I think what we would all agree on at this committee is that we don't want to do anything that weakens the opportunity for businesses. It's a delicate piece of work to find a path to transfer the list in a way that doesn't make it harder for government departments to procure from indigenous businesses.

What I really don't want to see is the government saying that this is too hard, so it won't do it at all. I think everybody at this table agrees that this is a big, important piece of Canada's GDP growth.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

When he appeared before the committee, Shannin Metatawabin, the CEO of the National Aboriginal Capital Corporations Association, said that his organization had tried to work with the government, but that there had been many delays. He said that his organization needs to create an infrastructure, hire staff and launch the project, but that it is having trouble getting assistance from Indigenous Services Canada.

He also said that he had sent you a letter, as did the national chief. They did not receive a reply, though.

I would like to know who is discussing this and who should be listening to what they have to say.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Provide a brief answer.