Government Operations Committee on Nov. 21st, 2024

[Carsten Quell]

Yes. The numbers that were mentioned are based on simulations that the Treasury Board Secretariat undertook before the regulations were adopted. We will have to wait to see what the final numbers are, but the number of 700 is correct, and the number of 154,000 more Canadians who will be able to access the services of Service Canada after the regulations are fully implemented.... Those numbers are correct.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I'm wondering if you might be able to also provide us examples of other federal institutions but looking more at English-speaking provinces that have converted to being bilingual and some of the impacts that has had. Can you maybe provide us with examples from other areas?

[Carsten Quell]

Certainly, the impact is one that will be felt across the country. More French-speaking Canadians in the minority situation will be able to have postal services in the minority language, but this will also apply to other institutions, like Service Canada and the RCMP. Maybe I'll invite my colleague Annie, who is responsible for the implementation of the regulations, to give some examples.

[Annie Proulx, Director, Regulations and Policy, Official Languages Centre of Excellence, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you.

Those 700 offices will be spread across the country. In terms of specific examples, we can think of the key services. Business development agencies are also to be added to the list of examples provided by Mr. Quell.

Thank you.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

If you could, please provide that in correspondence—just examples for the committee, concrete examples where we can see those bilingual services supporting and providing services to francophone communities across Canada. Just some illustrative examples would be fantastic, if that's possible.

I wanted to ask you about the consultation process, but I think we're going to be short on time here. Can you talk a bit about the consultation process that took place before these changes were introduced?

[Annie Proulx]

When an institution such as Canada Post has several offices offering the same type of service in one particular region, as a general rule the regulations stipulate that it must offer bilingual services in a number of offices equal to or greater than the percentage of the minority population region. Canada Post proceeded with this survey to establish where those offices would be designated bilingual.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We'll go to Mrs. Vignola for six minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. I'm going to start with Ms. Boily, from the Department of Canadian Heritage.

I checked your website. As far as the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act goes, the Department of Canadian Heritage is a kind of legislator, if I can put it that way. In other words, the department develops the law and applies it elsewhere. That's another one of the department's roles.

Under the act, consumers have the right to communicate in French with federally regulated private businesses that carry on business in Quebec or a region with a strong francophone presence. Furthermore, employees of federally regulated private businesses who work in Quebec or a region with a strong francophone presence have the right to work in French. The act also stipulates that existing, potential and former employees and unions have the right to receive communications and documents from federally regulated private businesses in French.

Quebec is formally recognized as a francophone jurisdiction. At best, the French-speaking community in North America has eight million people. That's out of a total population of 340 million. I would call that a minority. In Canada, Quebec accounts for roughly eight million francophones. Let's say it's about 7.8 million people, if we take into account francophones in Louisiana and the Atlantic provinces. In Canada, then, we are talking about some 7.8 million francophones out of a total of 40 million people. Nevertheless, the government keeps saying that the minority language in Quebec is English. I have trouble finding a French radio station when I'm driving, and sometimes, I even have trouble getting service in French in Montreal. The first language people address me in is English.

Francophones in the Toronto area account for 1.9% of the population, and I see that 1.9% of all offices there are designated bilingual. In Toronto, then, the number of offices is at least equal to the proportion of the minority population, in accordance with the regulations.

In comparison, when I look at the Montreal area, I see that the 24 additional offices brings the proportion of bilingual offices in the area to 31%, meaning that they are for anglophones. I'm sorry to put it that way. Actually, no, I'm not sorry, since anglophones account for just 27% of the population there.

That means the number of offices serving anglophones is greater than the proportion of the area's anglophone population, but no way would the number of offices serving francophones ever exceed the proportion of the francophone population.

Do you see a problem with that? Do you see it as an injustice, a disparity in how the regulations are applied? At the end of the day, the law grants fewer rights to francophones in Quebec and outside Quebec than to anglophones in Quebec.

[Sarah Boily]

Perhaps I'll start by repeating that anything having to do with the design or implementation of the principles underlying the services to the public regulations really falls under the responsibility of our colleagues here, Carsten Quell and Annie Proulx.

Nevertheless, I can certainly comment on the measures the Department of Canadian Heritage has taken to further promote and protect French in Canada and in Quebec.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, but my question was really about the disparity in the services provided to francophones and anglophones.

I'll keep going then.

Let's turn to the Minister of Canadian Heritage's mandate letter, which dates back to 2021. To my knowledge, the ministerial mandate letter has not changed since 2021. It says, “We must continue to address the profound systemic inequities and disparities”. To do that, the minister is expected to “include and collaborate with various communities” and to “seek out and incorporate in [her] work, the diverse views of Canadians.” The letter goes on to list those communities, “women, Indigenous Peoples, Black and racialized Canadians, newcomers, faith-based communities, persons with disabilities, LGBTQ2 Canadians”.

Who's missing from that list?

[Sarah Boily]

The listed groups cover the vulnerable groups included in the federal government's equity measures.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

I would say that the outright refusal to consider francophones a minority community in Canada is, in my humble opinion, a blatant display of inequality and disparity and even of systemic exclusion and disrepute. It's clear to me. You can't even say that francophones are a minority in Canada and that they should also be included on the list in the Minister of Canadian Heritage's mandate letter.

The mandate letter doesn't even protect people who constitute one of the country's minorities and founding peoples alongside the first nations. For the record, the first nations arrived here long before us francophones. However, we arrived 150 years before the anglophones.

The mandate letter doesn't even mention the protection of Canada's francophone minority group. How can we expect Canadian Heritage to truly protect francophones through the Official Languages Act if it doesn't even mention them?

[Sarah Boily]

Here—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid we're out of time for a response, unless you can offer a quick one. Otherwise, we'll get back to the next round.

[Sarah Boily]

I simply wanted to say that the mandate letter just quoted dates back to 2021. The modernized version of the Official Languages Act, which recognizes the special status of the French language in Canada, including Quebec, was adopted in June 2023. This can give us hope for the future as far as recognition is concerned.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Next, we have Mr. Boulerice, please, for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

For 13 years, I've been the member of Parliament for Rosemont—La Petite‑Patrie, a constituency in the heart of Montreal. There are challenges for the French language. However, I can say that we have a variety of French‑language radio stations in Montreal. Moreover, people are served in French every day in restaurants or other places. Certain issues can sometimes arise, but it's extremely rare.

That said, the overall situation of French in Montreal, Quebec and across Canada remains fragile and sometimes under threat. The House of Commons has recognized this. We must remain constantly vigilant and make every effort to advocate for the preservation and development of the French fact. We agree on this.

That's why the August 19 article in the Journal de Québec, which reported that Canada Post changed the status of 24 Montreal‑area post offices from unilingual French to bilingual, caused quite a stir. This shows, for example, a potential decline of French and a bilingualization of the Montreal area.

According to the explanation given, the decision seems to have been made based on data from the 2021 census. According to the census, 71.3% of people in the Montreal area speak French, 20.4% speak English and 6.7% speak both languages, meaning that they're bilingual. I already have my doubts about this figure. However, I'll check with Statistics Canada, since it isn't your department's responsibility. The 6.7% figure for bilingual people in the Montreal area seems low to me, given what we're seeing on the ground.

However, the change in status of these Canada Post offices has increased the percentage of bilingual offices from 21% to 31%. The key issue here is that unilingual anglophones amount to 20.4% of the Montreal population. In light of this, the 31% figure for bilingual offices seems enormous. I understand that, if we add the 6.7% of people who identify as bilingual, the figure rises to 28% of the Montreal population who identify as either anglophone or bilingual. This would justify the 31% figure. However, the 6.7% of people who are bilingual don't need bilingual post offices, since they can speak and understand French.

Why the discrepancy between the 20.4% figure for anglophones and the 31% figure for bilingual offices?

[Carsten Quell]

First, the Government of Canada's policy is to offer Canadians services in the official language of their choice, regardless of their language skills. A bilingual person shouldn't be treated any differently from a unilingual person. Everyone who visits a federal office has the right to choose the official language in which they wish to receive service, according to their needs.

We wondered what led to this increase in the number of people who may want to receive service in the minority language. This is the impact of this new calculation method. The goal is to count all the people across Canada who use a minority official language at home. We then consider that all these people, such as francophones outside Quebec, might want to receive service in French.

The fact that the post office now provides services in both official languages doesn't make it any less anglophone or francophone. This certainly wasn't the intention of the Governor in Council upon establishing these regulations.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Mr. Quell, I gather that this calculation method provides more benefits or protection for francophone minority communities outside Quebec. The situation isn't the same at all in Montreal. I find that applying the same formula everywhere adversely affects the protection of French in Montreal. This is especially true given that the new Official Languages Act recognizes the imbalance between the status of French and English across Canada.

Why not take into account this imbalance recognized by the legislation and do things differently in Quebec?

[Carsten Quell]

I can only say that, before the adoption of these regulations, extensive consultations were held on their possible impact. The regulations were introduced in Parliament. We're now implementing the regulations.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have 20 seconds.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I'll give them to you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Mrs. Kusie for five minutes.

We'll do five minutes for Mr. Jowhari. Instead of two-and-a-half-minute rounds, we'll finish up with five minutes for the Bloc and the NDP.

Mrs. Kusie, the floor is yours.