Government Operations Committee on Dec. 5th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Obed. We're about a minute past our time, but I wanted to give you a lot of opportunity to answer the question.

Ms. Gill, welcome to OGGO. The floor is yours, please.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

Thank you, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for their participation today.

Ms. Jaime and Mr. Obed, in your respective opening statements, you raised a number of important points. You talked a lot about obstacles. I get the impression there was good will behind this idea of offering procurement opportunities to indigenous businesses, but perhaps it all happened too fast.

Ms. Jaime, you talked about the criteria for an individual to obtain indigenous status, but verifying indigenous businesses was also mentioned. I'd like to hear more from both of you on that issue. I know the work is ongoing and you mentioned that it would be completed by March 2025.

However, right now, some people who are not indigenous are taking advantage of opportunities for indigenous peoples, so what should we do? What distinction should be made, for example, between an Inuk person and an Inuk business? Based on what criteria should a business to be recognized as indigenous? We know that a company's status could be determined by its owner, but should it also be determined by its employees, suppliers and subcontractors? I know the work isn't finished, but I think that question should be top of mind.

[Dr. Angela Jaime]

I think I understand that question. What were our obstacles? At the University of Saskatchewan we do procurement and we use our policy for procurement process. For anyone who is going to seek indigenous-specific space—so for these kinds of contracts where it's for indigenous companies—they go through our process for verification of documentation. We're not asking for their lineage; we're asking for the documents that the community itself is requesting that we accept.

We do have an agreement with ITK, which adjudicates the four collectives, the beneficiary's documentation. When Inuit people come to the University of Saskatchewan seeking indigenous-specific space, they submit their beneficiary card and we double-check that with ITK, which then communicates that with the four collectives.

I think I'm answering your question.

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

I'd like to ask you an ad hoc question. You say that you check with the community. Well, it might not be the same for First Nations or Métis, because there can also be companies outside the territory or the community. Some are off reserve and not affiliated with a band.

In fact, what's being illustrated here is that there isn't really a uniform process. The University of Saskatchewan already has a good process for this, but it's not necessarily the same one the government uses. It's done differently in different communities, be they Métis, Inuit or First Nations. I know you have standards at the University, but it would be different elsewhere.

[Dr. Angela Jaime]

Yes, we did establish this to be proactive—

[Marilène Gill, Bloc, Manicouagan, QC]

There are no standards.

[Dr. Angela Jaime]

—to continue to not allow for fraudulent claims on indigenous membership or citizenship.

The same thing we do with ITK we do with the Métis governments and first nations bands. We go directly to the bands, which is a bit different from going directly to Métis Nation-Saskatchewan or to ITK to do the adjudication. We go directly to the bands to ask them what documentation they want us to accept. Is it a letter? Is it a status card? Is it both? Is it some other form?

[Natan Obed]

I would just add, for Inuit, no matter where our beneficiaries live, they are still beneficiaries of our treaty organizations. We don't fall under the Indian Act. We don't have on reserve, off reserve. We are able to present as a collective to the University of Saskatchewan or to the federal government, and that all Inuit in the country fall under the purview of the treaty organizations and then at the national level, ITK.

I want to call on Will David to answer the other part of your question on the details of what constitutes an Inuit business.

[William David, Director, Legal Services, Inuit Tapiriit Kanatami]

As we noted in our opening remarks, we have a mechanism with the Crown to do work on joint priorities. The Government of Canada and Inuit have jointly decided that for the purposes of procurement defining an Inuit business is something that we all want to work on.

As a threshold matter, just defining who is Inuit is a top-level issue. It is a separate issue we had worked on through that mechanism, just to specify that when we're talking about Inuit in Canada, the federal government, ITK and ITOs agree who the collective rights holders are—that is to say, the Inuit treaty organizations enlisted them. Each of those treaty organizations, in turn, has its own definition for what constitutes an Inuit business within their region or for their members. Then, we're working with the Government of Canada to deal with those issues where there may be Inuit businesses that involve Inuit from multiple treaty organizations as well.

However, that's really just to provide the definitional basis to be able to measure and assess whether a recipient of a contract is, in fact, an Inuit business consistent with federal policy as well as the definitions developed by ITOs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boulerice, it's over to you, sir.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today for this important study.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Boulerice, I apologize. We're not getting a proper connection for you, sir. Maybe we can flip to our next round with Mr. Genuis while we get IT to contact you. If we can get you working, we'll slot you back in for your six minutes.

Go ahead for five minutes, Mr. Genuis.

Mr. Boulerice, we'll follow up with you.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Getting back to our witnesses, when I finished my last round, we were talking about the complete lack of enforcement. I think it's pretty stark in terms of the issue of enforcement. Over a thousand companies have been removed from the indigenous business directory. There are various reasons for that. It could be a change of ownership, but over a thousand companies have been removed from the indigenous business directory, including notable cases like Dalian Enterprises, involved in the arrive scam scandal, and the Canadian Health Care Agency, part of a very suspicious joint venture.

You have all these companies being removed from the indigenous business directory, and yet not a single company has ever faced consequences for indigenous identity fraud. Our position would be that indigenous identity fraud is fraud. If you're trying to gain a financial advantage through indigenous identity fraud, then that should be treated with all the seriousness that any other case of fraud would be treated with. Actually, frankly, none of this is being treated very seriously by the government. In any event, all fraud should be treated seriously, and that should include indigenous identity fraud.

Do you have a response to the fact that not a single case of consequences for indigenous identity fraud has been identified?

[Natan Obed]

It's unacceptable. We are hoping that in the future this country will create legislation, or will create enforcement mechanisms for existing legislation, to treat this issue for what it is—fraudulent activity.

We do have growing case law. Just this year, an individual has been sentenced to federal prison, a three-year sentence, for her role in defrauding Nunavut Tunngavik. It's too bad Nunavut Tunngavik is not able to speak about this today. We also know that in the United States there have been cases where individuals, groups or collectives who have fraudulently identified as indigenous peoples have been sentenced and served time in jail.

Fraud is fraud. Some of this meets the threshold of millions of dollars. It should be treated with the same consequence that any other sort of fraud within the business community is dealt with. We look forward to strengthening the enforcement mechanisms in relation to this scenario, which is, frankly, growing. If it is not checked, it will become an existential crisis within this country for the delineation between who is indigenous and who is not and another form of colonization where those who are not indigenous are taking material advantage from indigenous peoples.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

An existential crisis and a new form of colonialism—those are very strong words. Thank you for sharing your reflections on that.

The time is running short, but do any of the other witnesses want to comment on the same point?

No. There's no need to if you agree. Okay.

What percentage of federal government contracts do you see as presently going to properly identifiable Inuit businesses?

[Natan Obed]

Thanks for that question. This also leads us into another point.

We currently do not have the data to be able to understand, from a distinctions base, what the Inuit percentage of indigenous procurement is. We have worked through the Inuit-Crown partnership committee to ask for this data. We don't have it yet. It would help us immensely. We're all trying to reach a threshold, and we would love to be able to—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

You don't have it. Do they not have it, or are they just not giving it to you?

[Natan Obed]

I don't know.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Okay.

Well, let's make this simple: Does the committee agree to order the production of this information?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Great.

We can help you get access to it through the committee, then.

One concern I have is that when I look at some of the numbers for indigenous businesses, many of them that are getting large amounts of contracts seem to be geographically based in Ottawa. There's nothing wrong with being based in Ottawa, but you would expect or you would hope that for indigenous procurement, businesses that are based in the homeland areas that you've identified would be able to get contracts.

Do you have any observations around businesses that are based in your areas getting these contracts versus people needing to move to the south in order to benefit from these opportunities?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Please offer a brief response, if possible.

[Natan Obed]

I would say there's a very nuanced answer to this that I don't have time for. What we're looking for is legitimacy in these institutions. The geographic location of them may be suited better for the opportunities. We're just looking for a level playing field.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks.

We'll go to Mr. Bains now. Then we'll try Mr. Boulerice again.

Go ahead, Mr. Bains.

[Parm Bains, Liberal, Steveston—Richmond East, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Is my sound good? I didn't get a chance to do a sound check.

I'll continue with my questions—