Government Operations Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[Alex Benay]

I'd say yes, absolutely.

We surveyed Dayforce customers precisely to make sure we had answers to certain questions about different companies, different sectors, who have different needs. They have quite specific needs, but it works well for them.

For my part, I'm confident that it will work well for us. It's a question of how we're going to proceed in relation to the solution as it stands.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

What does the implementation schedule look like?

[Alex Benay]

By the end of the year, we'll have the detailed schedule. That's one of our goals for the fiscal year.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. Benay. We are out of time.

Perhaps you could provide something in writing, or perhaps in the new year we could invite PSPC back specifically for a session just on Phoenix and an update.

We're going to go to Mr. Genuis for five minutes, please.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Ms. Reza, you've referred seven cases of fraud to the RCMP. I'm a bit worried about the cases of fraud not referred to the RCMP as well. How many instances have there been, in the last nine years, where an official of some level or a third party reviewer has alleged fraud and the government chose not to refer that issue to the RCMP?

[Arianne Reza]

Thank you very much for the question. Of course, that's a hard question to unpack. We can certainly try to triangulate some information.

First off, any serious allegation of fraud is referred to the RCMP or to law enforcement. You've heard that at committee through the AG report and the ombud. They have said themselves that wherever they've seen fraud, they've referred it.

I know that we co-managed a tip line for competition. When we get any tips, we are always triaging and looking at them. There is a certain threshold for the definition of fraud, but it's always acted upon and followed up on, depending on—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I'm going to seize on the word “serious”. You said you refer “serious allegations of fraud”.

Is it common for you to receive allegations of procurement fraud that are ultimately deemed unserious by senior officials?

[Arianne Reza]

Certainly, with all of the ones that I've received, I've always referred them immediately to a departmental oversight branch to investigate, review and subsequently action.

What I meant—let me clarify my remarks—is that sometimes we receive allegations of fraud that are unfounded. Those do not get referred.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

To be clear, I'm not talking about a random, unidentified member of the public giving you an anonymous tip saying that so-and-so should be investigated. I'm talking about people inside of government or a third party investigator that you've hired.

Obviously, what brings this to our attention is the case that we heard about at committee this week. A third party auditor engaged by the government met a group of senior officials from multiple departments. He alleged fraud, shared evidence for that and suggested a referral to the RCMP. That referral did not happen.

Would that have been a case where somebody determined, for whatever reason, that those weren't serious? What's your response to that case?

[Arianne Reza]

Well, I don't believe so. In general.... We can turn to Catherine if she has comments specifically on allegations of fraud, the number we've received and what we've referred over the years. I can speak to you a little more specifically about that case, because, of course, I've been following the deliberations of the committee—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can I just ask this first? I would like a follow-up on specific numbers and instances, like how many cases there have been of internal allegations of fraud that were not referred, if you can get that answer to us in writing.

However, I'd like to hear your feedback on this case as well. I'd like to hear your follow-up.

[Arianne Reza]

I think what's of relevance to the committee's deliberations, a factor for consideration, is that, in the report by the auditor, there is no mention of fraud. When the report was submitted to departmental officials—at that time Health Canada and others, that was the client—the report noted “non-compliance”. The contract was terminated for non-compliance and was recompeted in a non-indigenous procurement aspect.

In the auditor's report—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Just to be fair, the auditor's role is not to make definitive determinations of criminal activity. It's his role to assess compliance or non-compliance, but he also shared that he thought there was substantial evidence that there was fraud, and he explained why. According to his testimony, that information was not acted upon. Outside of the scope of the audit, he uncovered information that, it seems, was not acted on.

Have you investigated whether the meeting he describes did happen and whether officials were told about fraud? Do you have information as to whether that meeting occurred, what was said and what decisions were made?

[Arianne Reza]

Unfortunately, as it relates to the meeting, the material is relatively fresh. We don't yet have the evidence that was submitted to the committee. We're still looking at the chronology of events.

I have some familiarity with the case. I recall that I had just arrived in the role of ADM of procurement. I was testifying at this committee on indigenous procurement, and it was really around the non-compliance of this joint venture, so—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Can I just say, as well, that CHCA got over $130 million of contracts from the government since 2019. They were found to be non-compliant. There were concerns that there was fraudulent criminal activity going on. Why did they continue to get contracts worth over $130 million?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Give just a brief response.

[Arianne Reza]

The joint venture was found to be non-compliant. The companies individually were allowed to compete for contracts in subsequent years. They were found non-compliant in the PSAB program, but they were allowed, and both sides—the indigenous company as well as the non-indigenous company—were not subject to any sanctions.

Now, in a new framework, there may be a different outcome—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I have to cut you off there, because we are past our time.

We go to Mr. Jowhari, please.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the officials. Ms. Reza, it's good to have you back with your officials at our committee, and thank you for your wholesome responses.

I'm going to direct this question to you, and you're welcome to direct it to any of the members of your team.

PSPC is requesting $7.7 million under operating expenditures, vote 1b, “for the Presidency of the 2025 G7 Summit in Canada”. This is a horizontal item, with about $85 million requested across four departments in these estimates. This is also part of the 2024 budget initiative, which is about $113 million in funding for various departments.

Can you or any of your team members shed some light on what items are on the agenda for this summit?

[Arianne Reza]

I think PSPC's contribution to some of the back-office functions associated with the G7 is actually reflective of how we support many different government horizontal initiatives that come as time passes.

For specifics around what we're doing with our $7 million, I'm happy to turn the floor to my colleague, Mark Quinlan.

[Mark Quinlan]

Global Affairs Canada is, of course, playing its role as coordinator and leader within government. At Public Services and Procurement Canada, as my deputy minister just mentioned, we provide support for leases and some construction on the sites. In addition, this year's request includes modest amounts for salaries, travel and certain other expenses, in order to support the direction imposed by Global Affairs Canada.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

So you wouldn't know anything about the scope of the work, what the requirements are or what projects Canada will be highlighting in that.

[Arianne Reza]

In terms of the substantive content of the G7 agenda, there is a G7 Sherpa, and Global Affairs and the centre are looking very carefully in consultation with international committees on what will be the best agenda topics.

On our side, we are looking at things like leasing, renting, security, safety and the various elements of either procurement or leasing that have to be in place to enable a smooth and successful G7 from a bricks and mortar perspective.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you for that.

PSPC is also requesting authorities for transfer of about $640,000 from the Treasury Board Secretariat under operating expenditures, vote 1b, to support projects that will reduce greenhouse gas emissions in federal government operations.

Can you give us some specifics on that transfer at the project level, if any exist?

[Arianne Reza]

I'll start at a high level and turn to Mark for assistance.

In fact, PSPC is one of the lead departments in terms of reducing greenhouse emissions through the built environment and through the procurement environment, looking at various elements such as energy, clean energy, and working with.... I know that Alberta and New Brunswick have been key leaders in this area, so we are looking at projects specifically around that.

I think some of the money that is associated with it goes to ESAP, which is the energy savings plan that Parliament is part of. Some of those areas are associated with that.

I don't know, Mark, if you have any further precision.