Government Operations Committee on Dec. 12th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 160 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known, of course, as the mighty OGGO, truly the only committee that matters.

Before we start, everyone, this is a reminder to please keep your headphones away from your mikes at all times. Do not touch the microphone either, please, to protect the hearing of our very valued interpreters.

We have Minister Duclos, of course—welcome back—but we have him only for one hour. I know that we're always quite loose with our time, but I'm going to keep everyone exactly to their allotted time. To prevent me from cutting you off or missing an answer, please watch your own clock.

We'll now turn things over to Minister Duclos for five minutes for an opening statement.

Welcome back, Minister, and your officials.

The floor is yours.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Minister of Public Services and Procurement]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for that generous welcome on this beautiful Thursday morning.

Thank you also for this opportunity to discuss the supplementary estimates (B) 2024-2025 for Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, as well as Shared Services Canada. Let me begin by acknowledging that we are gathered on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe peoples.

I am joined today by key members of the PSPC team: Arianne Reza, deputy minister; Alex Benay, associate deputy minister; Jean‑François Lymburner, chief executive officer of the Translation Bureau; Simon Page, assistant deputy minister; Catherine Poulin, assistant deputy minister; Mark Quinlan, assistant deputy minister; and Michael Hammond, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister. From Shared Services Canada, I'm joined by Scott Jones, president, and Scott Davis, assistant deputy minister and chief financial officer.

In the supplementary estimates (B), we're requesting additional funding of $841.7 million for PSPC and $52 million for Shared Services Canada. Before getting into the details, allow me to provide an update on some of my priorities and my team's priorities, as well as on the progress we have been able to make since I last appeared before this committee.

First of all, the government's plan to address the housing crisis by building 4 million homes is the most ambitious construction plan in Canadian history, and we're accelerating that. PSPC is doing its part through its public land use plan for homes. Over the summer, we launched the Canada Public Land Bank, which now lists 83 federal properties that will be used to build housing. The list will keep growing in the coming months as we continue to assess the availability of surplus public lands. To the extent possible, our government is transforming these properties into affordable housing through a long-term lease, not a one-time sale, to sustainably support housing affordability and ensure that public lands remain public.

In the meantime, we recently took an important step forward in our plan to make dental care more affordable for all eligible Canadian residents. To date, more than a million Canadians have received oral health care through the Canadian dental care plan, and over 3 million Canadians have received their member card. Participation will continue to grow next year as more Canadians between the ages of 18 and 64 become eligible for the plan.

In addition, building on recent reports, including those of this committee, the Canadian government has made a number of key improvements to protect the integrity of the federal procurement system. This includes intensifying our efforts to detect fraud and combat wrongdoing by certain suppliers and the public service. Public servants at PSPC continue to work with other departments to improve oversight measures, particularly when it comes to documenting procurement requirements and making decisions about professional services. I will also mention that PSPC is gradually implementing a vendor performance management program to further strengthen regular monitoring of costs, quality and timelines. Suppliers are evaluated using a standardized scorecard. Once the program is implemented, these scores will be part of future bid evaluations.

Going back to the supplementary estimates, the majority of the funding requested by PSPC, $620 million, will be used to support the implementation of a number of critical infrastructure projects. PSPC is also requesting access to $102 million to advance a new human resources and pay system, as well as $9.6 million for the Translation Bureau to ensure the vitality of our two official languages and of French in Parliament.

I will now move quickly to the supplementary estimates for Shared Services Canada, which, as the Government of Canada's information technology pillar, delivers the technology programs and services that Canadians need. Shared Services Canada is requesting a net increase of $52 million to bring its available funding to $2.69 billion, as well as an additional $11.5 million for telecommunications infrastructure in advance of Canada's major G7 summit in 2025.

This work represents just a few of the important initiatives taking place in my diverse portfolio at PSPC. I would be very pleased to answer any questions or comments you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You're right on time. Thanks very much.

We'll start with Mrs. Block for six minutes, please.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister and your departmental officials, for joining us here today.

After nine years of this Liberal government, everything is broken. You don't need to take my word for it. I'm going to note that the procurement system within the Government of Canada is especially broken. This is not a partisan statement, but a sentiment that is also shared by the procurement ombudsman.

In an article by Blacklock's Reporter, entitled “$25B Contract System Broken”, the procurement ombud said that “the Canadian system is kind of near the bottom tier”. That's a quote. He went on to say that the irregularities, such as the sweetheart deals, are symptomatic of “a broken system”. On Tuesday, when he appeared before the committee, he gave us some examples—it was quite a list—such as “WE Charity, ArriveCAN, McKinsey, bait and switch” and now indigenous procurement.

As you said in your opening comments, Minister Duclos, Public Services and Procurement Canada works with all departments when it comes to procurement. Billions of dollars are being wasted and going to Liberal insiders, who are basically fleecing taxpayers.

How much money are taxpayers on the hook for for outsourcing this year? Can you provide us with a number?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'm very glad that we're talking about procurement this morning, because procurement in the federal government represents approximately 400,000 contracts and other activities that, dating back just two years ago, saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of Canadians because of the immense ability to save. There were the issues that we were obviously facing in hospitals and across Canada with vaccines, PPE and other things.

Pointing to the successes and the challenges, which you are correctly pointing out, that we're having with the national shipbuilding strategy, defence procurement—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Excuse me, Minister. I didn't point anything out about the national shipbuilding strategy. I asked how many contracts are being outsourced and how much Canadians are paying for those contracts to external consultants.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'll come back to that in a moment—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

No. I would actually like you to provide me with the answer now.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I'll come back to what I thought would be my first point. I'll come back to that second.

On external services procurement, as you well know, we have significantly reduced those because we don't need those investments as much as we did during COVID, when the lives and the safety of Canadians were extremely important to the federal government.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

By how much have you decreased the amount of funding—

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Approximately 15%—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

—being spent on external contractors?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Again, it's by approximately 15%, because that's the right thing to do. It varies, according to—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

It's 15%. What is the dollar amount?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I know translation may have difficulty if we interact together too often. It will be difficult for French-speaking MPs and others listening in the room and outside to follow—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt here. I've stopped your clock.

This has come up before repeatedly. If there are issues with the interpreters, they will advise the clerk, and the clerk and I will intervene. Until then, we'll get back, but we'd appreciate it if you could respond to the question.

Thank you.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

As I mentioned, it's about 15%.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

What's the amount in dollars, please?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

It depends on the departments, because we don't control all contracts, but each department has had the overall objective of decreasing reliance on external consultants by about 15%.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

In other words, you don't know the number.

We know the government has blown past its deficit targets. How much of that is due to the increase in outsourcing?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That's a great point you're making, because we are seeing in Canada a fall in inflation and a fall in interest rates. Announced just a few days ago was the fifth in a row, which is the quickest fall in interest rates seen across all comparable developed economies. We're also seeing an increase in employment—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Minister, we've had this kind of exchange in previous committees. I can appreciate that you really don't want to answer the questions that we're asking here today, but you're really doing us as parliamentarians and Canadians a disservice when you ignore the questions that we're asking on behalf of Canadians.

I would simply put to you that your government is blowing past its deficit targets. How much of that is due to an increase in outsourcing?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

What I'm trying to do, respectfully, is support the initial part of your question. You started by saying that everything is broken in Canada, which is inaccurate and, I think, insulting to most Canadians, because, as I said, we are doing really well compared to most other countries in the world. Yes, we've had challenges postpandemic—

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

In other words, you would say that Canadians have never had it so good. Is that what you're saying?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

I think that Canadians don't want to hear that everything is broken, as some people are indeed saying in the House of Commons and elsewhere. That would be inaccurate and, again, it would be insulting to most Canadians to pretend that everything is broken—