Government Operations Committee on Sept. 22nd, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome back to committee. I trust everyone had a good summer.

This is the 28th meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. The committee is meeting today to consider the study of expenditures related to the Office of the Governor General's Secretary.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely, using the Zoom application.

Regarding the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person. Unfortunately, we lost half an hour, but we will try to be as close to 5:30 p.m. as possible.

I would like to take this opportunity to remind all participants of this meeting that taking screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

I would like to welcome the witnesses. With that, we'll have opening statements. We will go in order, starting with Ms. MacIntyre, then Mr. Wheeler and then Lieutenant-General Kenny.

Welcome and thank you very much for coming. You have five minutes for an opening statement.

We'll start with Ms. MacIntyre.

[Christine MacIntyre, Deputy Secretary, Policy, Program and Protocol Branch, Office of the Governor General's Secretary]

Good afternoon.

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee, for this opportunity for me and my colleagues from Global Affairs and the Department of National Defence to assist the committee in its work today in its study of catering expenses related to official diplomatic travel on government aircraft.

My name is Christine MacIntyre and I am the deputy secretary to the Governor General, from the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General. In my role, I am responsible for the teams that support the Governor General's constitutional, State, diplomatic, official and public programs, in Canada and abroad.

The Governor General undertakes official international travel only at the request and upon the recommendation of the Government of Canada, in support of Canada's foreign policy objectives and to advance trade, investment and partnership opportunities on behalf of Canada.

In support of these objectives, governors general normally travel with delegations, including parliamentarians from all parties and leaders from the public and private sectors who volunteer their time to help advance Canada's policy objectives, as well as the required logistical, security and administrative staff and, sometimes, members of the media.

Once approved by the government, these visits are planned, coordinated and implemented by the Office of Protocol at Global Affairs Canada for which my colleague, the Chief of Protocol of Canada, is responsible in terms of planning, coordinating and executing.

When the use of government aircraft is required for such visits, like the one to the Middle East in March 2022, the Office of Protocol requests support from the Department of National Defence, which coordinates all details related to the aircraft including the provision of in-flight catering, as my colleague, the Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, will explain.

As is the case for all such flights, the Office of the Secretary to the Governor General was not involved in the selection, provision or contracting of in-flight catering, nor did it make any special requests in this regard.

In May 2022, when the costs related to the catering provided on the flights during the Middle East visit were released, our office, like many Canadians and members, was very concerned. Stewardship of public funds and accountability are of the utmost importance to the Governor General and her office.

When we learned about this following the response to an Order Paper question, we immediately reached out to our partners at Global Affairs and National Defence to confirm the costs involved, to review processes related to in-flight catering and to evaluate and implement measures to improve efficiencies in a collaborative effort to strengthen accountability and to ensure maximum value for public funds.

In further reviewing the process and costs, our office learned from our partners that there were many variables that come into play, many of which my colleagues will describe in more detail. However, it was apparent to everyone that there were opportunities for improvement. Our office was encouraged that our partners were able to begin introducing efficiencies as soon as June 2022, even while their review of the specifics of these flights and the overall process were still ongoing.

We continue to offer our full support for the work they are doing on this file, and will do so on an ongoing basis. We have asked our partner departments to convene all offices involved in these flights on an ongoing basis to further identify ways to reduce costs and to maximize efficiencies wherever possible.

My colleagues will be able to speak in more detail about the results of the review and the improved measures they have implemented to date, but I want to assure the chair and the committee members that the Governor General and her office are concerned about these costs. We remain committed to the sound stewardship of public funds, and we continue to work with partners to responsibly and efficiently facilitate the important work the Governor General and delegations do in support of Canada and its foreign policy objectives.

While we cannot change what happened in the past, we can help implement change going forward, and remain committed to doing so.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When the opportunity arises, I would be pleased to answer any related questions the committee might have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. MacIntyre.

We'll now go to Mr. Wheeler.

[Stewart Wheeler, Chief of Protocol of Canada, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Honourable members of the committee, mesdames et messieurs, my name is Stewart Wheeler, and as chief of protocol of Canada, I'm pleased to join the committee alongside my colleagues to contribute to the important discussion taking place today to help clarify the processes that are used by our offices to fulfill our mandates, and to reassure the members of the committee of our shared commitment to sound management of public funds.

As the chair and committee members may be aware, I volunteered to join my colleagues today in order to be able to share relevant information on the work that we all do together in these processes.

The Office of the Chief of Protocol is responsible for managing and coordinating international protocol operations for the State, including high-level visits and associated events, as well as a series of services offered to foreign diplomatic officials here in Canada.

As part of that role, the office of protocol coordinates and delivers travel and logistics for high-level visits either to Canada by visiting dignitaries or abroad by Canadian dignitaries.

The international practice of exchanging high-level visits by heads of state and heads of government is a central element of diplomacy and international relations. The Governor General plays an important role in this context by travelling abroad at the request of the government to advance specific Canadian foreign policy objectives. A cabinet minister traditionally forms part of the official delegation, which often includes all-party groups of parliamentarians, as well as Canadians chosen based on their ability to contribute to advancing the themes and objectives of a visit.

As an example of delegations, the chair and committee members will have noted that a number of distinguished Canadians, including former governors general, prime ministers, national indigenous leaders and decorated representatives of national honours programs travelled on our flight this past week to London to attend the state funeral of her late Majesty the Queen. On our return, the Prime Minister of New Zealand joined us, engaging in important bilateral discussions as the leaders prepared for their engagements in New York at the United Nations this week.

One of the main objectives of international visits is promoting Canada, as well as strengthening ties between nations and international partners. We meet these objectives by opening doors at the highest level, in order to lay the groundwork in key areas such as trade expansion and investments and establishing dialogue on major international issues.

Once a high-level visit has been confirmed, the office of protocol leads on the coordination of the many stakeholders involved in the execution of these visits. We ensure that partner departments have the information they require to deliver on their individual mandates. Our office does not task other departments, but rather ensures that decision points are relayed and that knowledge and information is shared. The office of protocol arranges with the Royal Canadian Air Force for the use of government aircraft to facilitate transportation and, related to that, confirms the meals to be served based on the operational requirements of the visit program, i.e., whether the flights are taking place during mealtime, the dietary restrictions of passengers, etc.

As high-level travel has resumed after this difficult period, this is an opportune time for us to redouble our continued efforts to work across departments with our partners to constantly evaluate ways that we can improve efficiencies, eliminate unnecessary expenses and tailor our processes to deliver maximum return on the investment of public funds in these areas. Over the past months, our teams have already been engaged to look specifically at this particular area of our operations in order to improve our practices and identify efficiencies and potential savings.

In conclusion, I would like to underscore the importance of the Governor General's visits and the fact that they are the result of the close collaboration between the Office of the Secretary of the Governor General, the Canadian Armed Forces, Global Affairs Canada and other partners. We are always looking for ways to increase efficiencies and responsibly manage public funds in order to efficiently contribute to Canada's priorities and objectives internationally.

I'll be happy to answer any questions members may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Wheeler.

Now, we'll go to the Department of National Defence and Lieutenant-General Kenny.

[Lieutenant-General Eric Kenny, Commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force, Department of National Defence]

Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, I am Lieutenant-General Eric Kenny and as of August, I have taken over as the new commander of the Royal Canadian Air Force. In this position, I am responsible for the RCAF's air and space force, in Canada and abroad.

In addition to air defence and search and rescue, one of the RCAF's missions is to provide safe and secure travel for what we call Very Very Important Persons or VVIPs including the Royal Family, the Governor General and the Prime Minister.

Upon a request to provide VVIP transport, the RCAF, as a service provider, coordinates all flight details to ensure the conduct of a safe and effective flight, including the provision of meal services in coordination with the GAC protocol office.

To fulfill this goal, the RCAF is responsible for supplying pilots and crews, maintaining security and safety in flight, determining logistics with foreign countries and air traffic controllers, pre-positioning aircraft if required, conducting fuelling and maintenance, and finally working with Global Affairs to select menus and provide catering.

During these flights, VVIPs are provided in-flight catering services, which the Royal Canadian Air Force works with Global Affairs Canada to confirm but which the RCAF is responsible for procuring and supplying. To do so, RCAF flight stewards will liaise with airport catering services to identify meal options and procure the selected menu for the flight.

In compliance with air safety regulations and to ensure the safety of members and crew, RCAF flight stewards verify that all catering services meet Canadian food safety standards and that any food bought and brought onto the flight is safe for consumption.

RCAF flight stewards work with airport catering services to establish options for a meal, which are presented to Global Affairs Canada for review and approval. Once a menu is finalized and approved by Global Affairs Canada, the RCAF procures the selected menu from the caterers.

Catering costs are influenced by multiple factors, especially considering the episodic nature of VVIP travel, sometimes to airports where the RCAF aircraft do not frequently travel. For example, the RCAF may be restricted to using a sole catering service. This results when airports restrict catering services to a single catering provider or when the Royal Canadian Air Force must use certain catering services abroad to ensure that food meets Canadian health and safety standards.

Additionally, foreign catering services may have restricted menu options, resulting in additional expenses if the desired menu is not readily available.

Finally, catering costs also include additional back-end fees, which are common to all airline travel. These include costs related to waste disposal, food delivery and handling and international exchange rates.

These additional fees are included in the catering costs, and are charged regardless of the number of passengers on board. Whatever the flight, we seek to find efficiencies and reduce costs, all the while ensuring safe and secure transportation.

More recently, we have worked to reduce certain costs related to meal services. We have joined forces to further identify ways, where possible, to reduce costs, while also working within the reality of catering services offered at airports worldwide.

I look forward to answering your questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you very much, General.

As I look at the time, I recognize that we should be able to get through three rounds.

We'll start our first round of six minutes with Mr. Paul-Hus.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank our witnesses that are here today to answer our questions.

In these inflationary times, when millions of Canadians are finding it difficult to afford food, you will understand that we were very surprised by these types of expenditures. My first question deals with the Governor General's trip.

We know that the Governor General was in London March 14 and 15. However, the answer we received states that the Governor General was on board a flight that departed from Trenton, went on to Ottawa and then to London on March 16. That is impossible. The Governor General could not have been in London at the same time.

Which flight manifest is the correct one? Was the Governor General already overseas? Did the delegation join her in London?

[Christine MacIntyre]

The Governor General was indeed in London for her official meeting with Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. This had not been possible during her swearing‑in ceremony due to pandemic restrictions. The flight you are referring to left Canada while the Governor General was overseas. The Governor General then boarded that same plane in London and carried on with the rest of her visit.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

In the answer to question No. 512, we learned that 60 passengers, including 30 guests and 30‑odd crew members, incurred costs of $57,000 over one week, which comes out to $956 per head. For the flight in question, which included 17 guests as well as crew members, expenditures were on average $3,000 per person. We have just learned that the menu had been set by Global Affairs Canada. At one point, we didn't know who was in charge of the decision-making process. We were pointing the finger at the Canadian Armed Forces, but as we have learned, they follow the orders they receive.

General, would it be possible to see the menu that was ordered by Global Affairs Canada, including the associated costs for the various meals and alcoholic drinks that were served on board the aircraft?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

I will be able to get the menu for you.

Something I want to add to that response is that one of the challenges we have with global catering right now, specifically for airlines, is that we have very limited choices as to who we can cater with. As you've heard, the locations we're flying to are provided to us. The air force does have a responsibility to determine where we might stop along the route, but once the location is selected, we work with the local catering companies. In many cases, only a single catering company is available to us. Because of that, they have a monopoly on costs from a catering perspective.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, General. I do understand, but we simply want an explanation.

If things are complicated in Qatar or in Kuwait and everything costs three times as much as it does elsewhere, simply tell us and you'll have answered the question. We can understand that prices are higher in certain countries and that things cost less in Riga or in Berlin, for example, as was the case with the other trip. We would be pleased to receive an intelligent answer to clear things up.

We would like to know if there were excesses during the trip. Were people served caviar and expensive champagne, for example? That is the fundamental question. We do understand that people have to eat during a trip, but there's a difference between the cost of the 60‑strong delegation's trip to Europe and that of the 30‑person delegation. That's why we need an explanation. If you tell us that in Qatar, things cost four times as much, we will understand. That is what we want to know, General. We would like detailed information in answer to our questions.

Is there an office within Global Affairs Canada that tells you exactly what people would like to eat and then asks you to provide the menu, or do you have some leeway? Does the Royal Canadian Air Force have a say in these decisions, or do you simply follow instructions from Global Affairs Canada?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

I thank the member for his question.

The way we select the menu is that we go to the catering company. To answer a little bit your earlier question, what we look at is effectively chicken, beef and fish, so that is what the catering company will give to us. We then take that menu and share it with Global Affairs Canada protocol to ensure that it meets their requirements. Once they are satisfied with the requirements, we then go back to the catering company, establish a contract and go ahead and purchase the food. There is a difference in cost depending on where we go, as well.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

All right.

Did the crew enjoy the same menu as the passengers during the trip? Is there usually one set menu for the crew and another more lavish menu for passengers?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the member for his question.

Typically, the crew will receive the same menu selection as the rest of the passengers on board. It's much easier, logistically, to coordinate, because there's often only one service provider. To be clear, the crew will take whatever is remaining from the food selection. They'll receive the same food, but it will be whatever remains after the main passengers have been served.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Paul-Hus.

We'll now go to Mr. Housefather for six minutes.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

It's so nice to see everybody again.

Thank you to the three distinguished witnesses who are here with us today.

I loved what Ms. MacIntyre said how, essentially, of course we realize this doesn't make any sense.

The goal here, today, is to figure out what happened and how to fix it, going forward. As I calculated, there were 46 people on the flight. Not all of them ate every meal, and not all of them were on every leg of the flight. There were eight meals served and the total cost was $80,367. If you divide that by 46 people, you get $1,744 per person, or $218 for a meal, which includes breakfast. That seems way out of line to most Canadians.

Somehow, 19 bottles of wine and 15 cans of beer cost only $113. I think most Canadians would be pretty happy if 19 bottles of wine came to only $113. If we could find a way to have the food match the wine, that would be fantastic. Obviously, that doesn't make sense, so there must be all kinds of costs embedded in that $80,367 that have nothing to do with the cost of food.

Can someone walk us through the overall percentage that has nothing to do with food—what the different things are?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

When we contract with a catering company, the additional fees that come along, beyond the cost of the food, are for handling and delivery, storage, cleaning and food waste management. Those are additional costs. When we work with a catering company to determine the menu selections we want, we won't actually receive the cost estimate, in many cases, until we finalize the menu. That's just the way our industry works. We determine a menu, we submit it, and then they give us a cost estimate at that point, which includes these additional fees I've just described to you.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

At what point do you become aware of the costs, and who becomes aware of them? At what point in the process—before the flights, presumably—are you aware of what the total catering cost is estimated to be?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

I would say it depends on the flight. In some cases, we have very little notice for planning these events, and the cost estimates are coming in just prior to the actual execution—sometimes as we're issuing the contract. When we have longer lead times, as with this particular flight, we can have earlier estimates.

Each catering company does it differently. In many cases, the cost estimates are not fully understood until further into the contracting process, because of the way they implement it. That information comes to the Royal Canadian Air Force for us to manage and then to go ahead and pay the bill.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand that.

Overall, what percentage of the $80,000 was not associated with food? What were those four extra costs for those four extra line items you mentioned? Was it 50%, 75% or 10%? What balance of the costs relate to the food costs themselves?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

The reality is, the catering companies don't break that down for us. In fact, they don't necessarily break down the costs per menu, either. What we get is an overall cost. Some do provide more detail than others, but you don't get the actual cost breakdown of each of the things I've just described to you. It's very difficult to provide that. In some cases, you get it, and in some cases, you don't.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I understand.

In this case, presumably, because there were multiple flight segments, and different countries and different caterers that had to be engaged—because the airports had monopolies...without those caterers—did anybody look at the numbers and reject the initial proposal from the caterer and go back and negotiate? Were there negotiations involved, or did these flight segments always accept the first price provided by the caterer?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

There is very little—actually no—negotiation in these cases, unfortunately, unless there is more than one caterer available to us, in which case we can then look to see which one is the best value for money, but, as described, the vast majority of them are single providers who then tell us the price, and there's no negotiation.

I would say that it's a little bit different from what you might see with airlines that come into the same locations all the time. They have established contracts that get them the best value for money.

[Anthony Housefather, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

That's understood.

Does anybody look at the price and say, “Oh my God, this is an astronomically high price for this small number of meals. Maybe we should look to the caterer and ask if, instead of ordering chicken, we should be ordering fish in this location because it's much cheaper”? Is there any negotiation on that part, maybe by Global Affairs or anyone else?