Government Operations Committee on Sept. 22nd, 2022

[LGen Eric Kenny]

This is something that we need to work on with GAC protocol, specifically, how we can further reduce costs as we move forward. There is opportunity to do that, but I'll defer to my colleague as to how the menu selection is determined. There are opportunities, I believe, to save money.

[Stewart Wheeler]

If the chair permits, I'll maybe jump in and just explain. It gives me an opportunity to outline the process, because people clearly have interest in understanding how those menus are arrived at.

In collaboration with the RCAF, we establish protocol once a visit has been approved and is being planned. We establish a meal plan for the entire visit. That determines how many meals or snacks will be offered during the various legs, based on the length of flights, the time of day and complementarity with the program. When we arrive, are we being fed at an event or are we keeping staff in a flight for eight and a half hours? We have an obligation as an employer to feed them. Are we living up to standard commercial airline practices for flights of similar durations?

The RCAF then works with their catering suppliers to provide available menus that would meet those types of meals. We don't send requests of what we must eat on this flight or what we must eat on that flight. We then review those. We look for things like redundancies, and we confirm whether the program has changed in the interim, whether those are still the meals that we require.

By then, we perhaps have a bit more information on our delegation passengers. We might know about dietary restrictions or some specific meals that we need to supply. Over the period of 32 hours of flights, six legs and eight meals, we try to provide some kind of variety for our passengers, but that's the extent of the—

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Wheeler.

I apologize for interrupting, but perhaps, as the questions come out, you might be able to add more as we go along here. I appreciate that.

We now go to Ms. Vignola for six minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank the witnesses that are here with us today to answer our questions.

All three of you mentioned, at the start of your presentation and before the meeting started, how much the amounts spent on these meals and the number of meals had been an unsettling surprise.

Mr. Housefather spoke of $267 per meal. I arrived at a total of $349 per meal. It depends, as it always does, on the way you calculate the total amount divided by the number of persons. Nonetheless, you will agree that $267 per head, whether it be lunch or dinner, is often the total amount that a family would spend for a week's worth of groceries.

This has raised questions and upset a lot of people, including me. I have used food banks over the course of my life, and to learn that five snacks cost $80,000 is a morsel that is difficult to swallow. I've just gotten off a plane and I doubt that the two Oreo cookies that I received cost the same. We are not talking about the same kind of flight, of course. I am not a VIP, I'm an ordinary person.

You do understand that this is raising serious questions, not anger, in people's minds and has touched upon their values.

Lieutenant-General Kenny, a while ago, you stated that it would not be possible to know what parts of the meal costs were not linked to the food, because the caterer invoiced the total amount. That is what I understood. If we ask you to break down the $80,000 to include management, meal delivery, storage, waste disposal and airport fees, administrative fees, security costs and taxes, you would not be able to do so. Is that correct?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the member for her question.

There are invoices that indicate the amount billed for food or other items, such as taxes, and that provide more detail, but other invoices are not at all detailed.

I know that these flights cost a lot of money,

for the catering specifically.

That's why we're committed to making sure that we continue to look at how we can best achieve what we're doing, which is providing a safe standard of food to those who are on our flights while ensuring we're doing so at the best price possible, recognizing that we go to areas where the cost of living is quite high in comparison to Canada, and therefore the prices are much higher than we potentially would see here in Canada.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Would it be possible to get a copy of the invoices sent for these meals by the various caterers?

You indicated that some caterers were not able to provide itemized invoices, whereas others were. Would it be possible to send us the invoices?

What we really want is to understand. As my colleague has said previously, if in Qatar things cost an arm and a leg, at least we would know and we could plan accordingly. I know that it is not always possible to plan meals well in advance, because aircraft aren't usually equipped with refrigeration systems. I'm not asking VIPs to eat Spam and mustard or peanut butter and banana sandwiches for five days. That is not what I am calling for here.

If, for example, things cost two and a half as much in Qatar than in London or in Berlin, would it be possible to plan for cold meals that can be brought on board? Is that feasible? Would that be appropriate for the diplomatic sector? I ask the question because diplomacy does not figure in my political mandate.

[Stewart Wheeler]

Thank you for the question.

We all agree that there are certain problematic issues connected with the flights. This is what we have observed. That is why we set up a working group that will review the processes and find answers to the following questions: how is it that these high costs were approved in certain cases? What were the factors at play? What were the expectations on behalf of the client that could have been made clear to our colleagues?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

This isn't the first time that costs have made the news. Why didn't we seek to get answers about the process 10 or 15 years ago? We have been hearing about trip expenditures for the governors general for a long time.

Your words are reassuring, but why wasn't this done before?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Mr. Chair, I thank the member for her question.

Over the years, we have changed the way we're ordering our catering services, specifically with the amount we order for the flights. Beyond working with Global Affairs Canada protocols to determine the type of menu selections—chicken, beef or vegetarian, as an example—and the numbers of each one, we also work to make sure we provide enough to cover the passengers who are on board and a bit of a contingency.

That contingency specifically has been reduced drastically over the years, most recently in 2022, but also in 2019. In 2019, we reduced the number of meals we were buying. We did a further reduction in June 2022, following this flight, on the number of meals we were buying, which does significantly reduce the cost overall for the catering provided on an aircraft.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, General.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's great to be back and to see you all, colleagues. I hope you had a wonderful summer. It's nice to be back on the unceded lands of the Anishinabe and Algonquin people.

I want to thank our guests for being here today and for their service.

I also want to thank Ms. Vignola for putting forth this motion, which we strongly supported.

We've seen the rising cost of living where many Canadians are struggling to make ends meet. Food costs are going up. We have just seen a 41-year high in inflation and 10.8% rise in food costs. Against this backdrop, it's understandable why many Canadians were concerned. They are not concerned; they are actually outraged when they hear about the in-flight catering expenses on this trip for the Governor General's March 2022 visit and tour of the Middle East.

The shockingly high costs—the $218 a meal—is unacceptable. A number of constituents have written to me today about this issue. I really hope we can get further transparency and some changes today.

Maybe I will start with you, Commander Kenny. Again, congratulations on your promotion. We're really grateful for your service.

Maybe you can talk about whether a budget for in-flight catering expenses is established in advance for trips on Airbus and Challenger flights. If so, can you talk about what the budget was for the Governor General's March 2022 tour of the Middle East?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We do not have a set budget for a specific flight. We are provided operations and maintenance funding throughout the year to cover VVIP travel, but we don't have funds specifically allocated for each flight.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Can you talk about what checks and balances are in place for when in-flight catering expenses are beyond the norm or what has been budgeted?

I'm concerned that if information regarding the catering costs for this trip hadn't been made public by an Order Paper question by Mr. Barrett, we wouldn't even be having this conversation about the appropriateness of these expenses or how to improve practices moving forward.

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Right now, this is coordinated between the flight steward lead on the particular flight and Global Affairs Canada protocol to determine the menus and to actually do the catering.

We are absolutely committed to changing this to make sure it reflects the expectations of Canadians and those who were serving on flights. I strongly believe we will be able to further reduce costs as we move forward.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's really good to hear.

My next question is whether there has been a thorough review of the catering expenses from this trip. What areas have you identified where expenses could have been reduced? If so, where were those possible savings?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

One of the savings that was identified was in terms of the contingency meals that are purchased for the flight, which are above and beyond the total number of people on a flight. Reducing that specifically is one of the savings that has been implemented.

There are also certain locations that we know are much more expensive than others. Having said that, working with Global Affairs Canada, we were told exactly what locations we're going to.

I will allow my colleague to speak to why they would pick certain locations.

[Stewart Wheeler]

If the chair would allow, I'm happy to jump in and add a little bit of detail there on the question of the selection of locations.

Often when we are travelling as guests to a host nation, it will be dictated what airport we need to land at. In consultation with Public Safety, other partners here in Ottawa and the air force, of course, we identify a flight routing. There may be some limitations on countries or places in which we can land to refuel, for example. That explains a little bit about the limitations we have sometimes on which airports....

I think what's really important is that the members of our teams have been working together since this episode. We recognize there are problematic elements of this process. What we're trying to do now is instill a no-nonsense environment where exorbitant costs need to be flagged. They need to be flagged at the appropriate moment, so we can make alternate choices or forgo things that might have been part of the standard operating elements that have always been included in packages.

We're happy to make those choices and we look forward to being able to deliver cost savings.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

What I'm looking for is what changes in practices have actually been implemented since March 2022 to ensure that there's responsible stewardship of public funds and ways to improve accountability, so that it doesn't require an Order Paper question and so that Canadians know what expenses...what changes are being done.

What is going to be moving forward the transparency to Canadians to help them see that this isn't going to happen again?

[Stewart Wheeler]

I would just mention again that we are identifying cost savings. One of the examples the general gave was on this idea of contingencies.

To help people understand, the standard operating procedure when you're on an international commercial flight is that you would be given a choice between two meals, chicken or fish. Ordering enough meals to make sure you have a balance of those and you allow that choice is an art. It's an art the caterers and the steward work through in order to have a balance between service and overage or waste.

As the general mentioned, the number of contingency meals that have been ordered in the past has been strictly reduced over the last few years. We've now decided, as one of the outcomes of the discussions we've undertaken since this became clear to us, to forgo choice altogether. So on the recent trip to London, there were no choices. That reduces the number we have to order, because everybody's eating the same thing. That's one. Obviously that doesn't apply if there are dietary restrictions, but we are able to identify those things in advance and make sure we have a robust system of checks and flags so that we're able to work together and avoid these exorbitant costs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Wheeler.

Thank you, Mr. Johns.

We'll now go to the second round, starting with Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Just very quickly, some of the committee members have asked for copies of the menus and so on. There would have been a banquet event order or catering event order for that.

Can you please confirm that you will provide that to this committee as soon as possible for this issue?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

I'll get you what we have.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thank you.

What was the reason for the difference between the $93,000 on the Order Paper question and the revision?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair. It's a great question.

Initially, when we responded to the Order Paper question, the cost that came out was $93,117.89. What we didn't specify, which we should have, was that it was based on an estimate, based on what we understood at the time from the catering companies to be the cost. When we received the invoices—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When we get these banquet event orders, are they going to reflect $93,000? That's quite a significant thing.