Government Operations Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2022

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question.

Without getting into the specifics of the program delivery for Indigenous Services Canada and health care in the north, what I would say is that in many cases, as I mentioned in my remarks, supplementing our professional public service is an important way to respond to both urgent shortages and urgent situations.

I could assume, in the case of health care, that if there's a need in a particular area for additional medical support that is likely urgent and time-critical, engaging services from the outside and contracting for those services would be an essential way of meeting that need and ensuring that those services are provided.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Recently—I think just a couple of weeks ago—the federal government announced that it is tripling both recruitment and retention allowances for Indigenous Services Canada nurses who are serving the 50 remote and isolated communities in Canada.

Knowing that we're tripling the recruitment and retention bonuses, I wanted to ask what that says about the state of the labour shortage of public sector nurses that we're facing in health care, specifically as it relates to being able to provide those critical, vital services in northern Canada.

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

As I highlighted, I'm by no means an expert in health care, but I would say that market conditions are an element that goes into the consideration of whether or not the public service can meet a need or whether or not a department would need to resource through contracts to deliver on that expertise or on those services.

Areas of market shortages and limited market availability will obviously impact the public service and would likely lead to that decision and looking at what the best way to meet that immediate need would be. That may very well be procurement.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Do you foresee the need for those externally hired temporary health care workers increasing in the short term?

[Emilio Franco]

Thank you for the question.

Unfortunately that's not a question I'm in a position to answer. The department of Indigenous Services Canada would probably be best placed to speak to their requirements for nursing and health care professionals.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you.

I know that some folks around the table have talked about the lack of environmental, social and governance—the ESG—bona fide external suppliers, unlike governments. How does PSPC include ESG criteria in its procurement?

[Mollie Royds]

Thank you very much for the question, Mr. Chair.

I believe that my colleague outlined earlier in the session a little bit about the procurement policies we have in place and how we seek to ensure that the government's broader socio-economic objectives are included in our procurements. In particular, related to ensuring.... We talked a little bit already about the government's target associated with the 5% of indigenous. We also have requirements associated with greening and with other government priorities.

I would actually turn to my colleague, Ron Cormier, who could speak a little bit about how we include these particular items within our individual procurements, associated with our policies and approaches.

I will turn quickly to Ron, please, just to give a quick example.

Thank you.

[Ron Cormier, Director General, Business and Technology Solutions Sector, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you for that, Mollie.

In terms of examples, there are a number of different types of contracts that we enter into on behalf of our clients. One that I would draw attention to is a series of supply arrangements. In order to make the procurement process more efficient across government, PSPC, as a common service provider, makes those available and departments use them to be able to contract a little more efficiently and quickly by using some elements that we've done the groundwork for.

As part of those, we work with our supplier community to identify within that community, for example, which suppliers are either indigenous-owned or indigenous-led. Within those instruments, for example, if I'm a client department and I'm interested in using one of those tools to be able to contract, I'm presented with options that will allow me to select indigenous suppliers within that inventory. Moreover, when those suppliers exist and have made themselves known to the Government of Canada, the selection methodologies are structured in such a way that you'll always be presented with an indigenous choice.

On some of our lower-dollar instruments, we're also trialing some additional socio-economic policies that can bring a similar degree of flexibility to help other equity-deserving groups. We're looking at whether that's something we can do in the future more broadly.

With individual contracts—large ones that are publicly tendered where there's a request for proposals—we're also now working very actively with all the client departments that come to us for service to help them strategize on how they can achieve their indigenous 5% component as part of contracting. We have to take into consideration Canada's complications globally using the trade agreements as a guidepost to ensure that Canada meets those obligations. Within that framework, we're able to, for example, lend weight in the bid evaluation process to companies that can offer significant subcontracting or even set aside primary contracting opportunities to suppliers that are indigenous-owned or indigenous-led.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier. If there's anything further that you'd like to add to that, please by all means submit that to the clerk.

We'll now go to Ms. Vignola for two and a half minutes.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

On Friday, I tabled a notice of motion regarding the Governor General’s expenses, with the intention of obtaining more detailed documents.

I don’t want to impact the time members have to speak after me. So, I would like the committee’s unanimous consent to take 10 minutes after the third round of questions to read the motion, discuss it and vote on it.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

You're asking for unanimous consent to have it read at the end of the meeting. Is that correct?

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, I would like to do this at the end of the meeting to avoid cutting into my colleagues’ time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

She's asking for unanimous consent to have a quick meeting afterwards on her motion, as opposed to interrupting the witnesses.

Do I see unanimous consent around the table?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I give the rest of my time to the next MP.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

We'll now go to Mr. Johns for two and a half minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

We have great interpreters, obviously. It's been a really difficult time through COVID. We've seen a lot of them have workplace health injuries and we value them so much. I'm going to ask a question around that.

What are the costs of outsourcing translation to freelancers, given that they may not reflect the added expenses related to payroll, invoicing, fallout with clients, etc., which add to the overall cost? What are the anticipated costs of outsourcing interpretation services to freelance interpreters?

[Mollie Royds]

Thanks, Mr. Chair, for the question.

PSPC, of course, does have the Translation Bureau as part of the departmental portfolio, but I'm afraid that we're not able to speak to those specific details today. We would be happy to submit that information in writing to the committee.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Okay. Thank you for that.

Frequently, rigid government budget practices are the reason for contracting out. They'll do this even though the services are not up to necessary standards. An example can be found in a study done at the Royal Military College in the mid-2000s:

The anecdotal assessments gleaned with respect to this particular approach where that inferior results were noted. During this lengthy period, the cleaning standard fell far below what was required for RMCC, especially in the critical residential spaces.... It was observed that in an effort to increase the profit margin the contract cleaners were using inferior or improper cleaning products which resulted in additional maintenance, environmental problems, and health and safety issues resulting in unfit living conditions for Cadets.

At DND in particular, services are often contracted out because the salary and wage envelope provided to base commanders is insufficient to meet salary needs, while they are provided with extremely generous private services budget lines, basically incentivizing privatization.

What steps are being taken to ensure that the quality of the service to the public and to other government departments is the first order of business?

[Emilio Franco]

I'll speak first from a policy perspective, and then my colleague, Mollie, may wish to speak from a practice perspective.

From a policy perspective, it's important that procurements that are put in place are actively being managed from a performance perspective. We're very clear in our policy that it is our responsibility to be documenting, monitoring and investigating issues of contractor performance as they arise over the course of the contract, and to be leveraging the appropriate measures, either by law or under that particular contract, to address the documented issues.

Maybe there's a practice perspective, Mollie, that you may wish to add.

[Mollie Royds]

I would simply add to what Emilio has said that we're responsible for working with our client departments. We would be the contracting authority, and our client departments, of course, would be the technical authority, so we would work together to ensure the performance monitoring and the appropriate contractual activities as allowed by the polices, as Emilio has indicated. As I said, we work hand in hand with our client departments for any specific requirement as contracting authority and common service provider.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Royds.

We'll now go to Mr. McCauley for five minutes.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

I just want to ask a quick question of the three departments here—just a really quick yes or no. Do you believe that taxpayers are getting fair value for the money, for the billions being spent on outside contracts, yes or no?

Why don't we start with PSPC? If I'm putting you on the spot, just say, “You're putting me on the spot. It's an unfair question.” That's fine. That's very fair. That's not my intent. If you feel strongly about it, feel free to answer.

The follow-up question I was going to ask the three of you, especially TBS, is this: How should we move forward to ensure that there's proper oversight and transparency on the spending to ensure that taxpayers are getting fair value, considering as well the exponential growth of the public service at the same time?

PSPC, can we start with you?

[Mollie Royds]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

Again, as we have indicated, this is an area that would be in each individual department's accountabilities and responsibilities under the appropriate legislation, as well as the various oversight bodies.

I know we've previously spoken to the role played by the Treasury Board, as well as the Auditor General and our own individual responsibilities as public servants for ensuring value for money for Canadians. Certainly, as PSPC, we take that responsibility very seriously as we ensure that we run fair, open, transparent and competitive processes as a common service provider and ensure that value for money.

We have spoken to the reasons for which we do—