Evidence of meeting #39 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was digital.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Catherine Luelo  Deputy Minister, Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat
Sean Boots  Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Digital Service, Treasury Board Secretariat
Amanda Clarke  Associate Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual
Rob Stewart  Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

We'll start. Good afternoon, everyone. It was a lively bunch and now everyone is quiet, which is wonderful.

Welcome to meeting number 39 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, a.k.a. the mighty OGGO. From 3:30 to 4:30, we will be studying ArriveCAN in public.

As witnesses we have, as an individual, Amanda Clarke, associate professor, school of public policy and administration, Carleton University. From the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we have Mr. Robert Stewart, who is the deputy minister of international trade. From Treasury Board, we have back with us Catherine Luelo, deputy minister and chief information officer; and also digitally we have Mr. Sean Boots, who is senior policy adviser, Canadian Digital Service.

We'll have five-minute opening statements, starting with Ms. Luelo, please.

3:35 p.m.

Catherine Luelo Deputy Minister, Chief Information Officer of Canada, Treasury Board Secretariat

Good afternoon.

Before I begin, I'd like to acknowledge that I am speaking here today from the traditional unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I would just like to note that this is actually my first appearance at committee. I'm excited to be joining you here today. Be gentle; it's my first time. I'm not sure if that's appropriate to say.

I have spent 16 months at the government out of a 30-year private sector career across several industries. I worked in energy and telecom, and actually served as the chief information officer at Air Canada, as well as in a commercial role at WestJet, so I worked for both of our large airlines. Those were very complex operating environments, as is the Government of Canada. There is a sizable opportunity to deliver Canadians high-quality, accessible and efficient government services through the improved use of digital, and that's what attracted me to come and serve the country.

As the chief information officer of Canada, it's my accountability to provide overall leadership for the management of information technology, information management, and service and digital transformation within the Government of Canada. My office does this by supporting the administration of legislation related to access to information and privacy, developing policy plans and standards, and a strong emphasis on enabling departments in their project and program management. That's a big piece of what we do as well.

There's policy on service and digital and policy on security for government, which includes cybersecurity. That also includes the GC cybersecurity event management plan. In the event that we have a cyber event within government, it is our team that actually coordinates the response.

We are also accountable for ensuring overall technology planning for the Government of Canada and we do so through a variety of different mechanisms. I have the privilege to support the Canadian Digital Service as part of my accountability, and we have Sean Boots from that team with us here today.

In August 2022, we launched the Digital Ambition for the Government of Canada. This is an ambition for all Canadians and it's to serve them in a digital way and deliver government in a digital way. It's a clear long-term strategic vision that tells us and guides us as to how we are going to actually recruit talent and deal with privacy, accessibility and the landscape of cybersecurity, and wraps that all up into a three-year plan. I encourage you to look at Canada.ca to have a look at that.

The highlights of this plan are transforming our services with modern technology while continuing to deliver the services that Canadians rely on today, so really doing government in a digital age.

We also highlight unlocking data to enhance programs and services, designing policies and strategies that have real-world impacts, and measuring performance. A very important part of the overall digital ambition is evolution in funding, talent and culture. We are dealing with a talent issue in this country and at the Government of Canada as it relates to digital talent. I'm sure our conversations will take us there today.

Thank you once again, Mr. Chair, for inviting me to speak with you today.

I welcome any questions that you may have today.

Thank you.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boots, it's over to you for five minutes, please.

3:35 p.m.

Sean Boots Senior Policy Advisor, Canadian Digital Service, Treasury Board Secretariat

Thanks so much, Mr. Chair. I'm really grateful to be here.

I'm a federal public servant who works on technology and public policy. I was invited to be here today in the context of research work that I did with Professor Amanda Clarke over the past year as part of the public servant in residence program. I'll be focusing my comments and answers today on observations related to that research.

This work was part of a research program that Professor Clarke leads on trustworthy digital government. IT procurement and the relationship between IT vendors and public service organizations are a big part of that story in terms of both public trust and public sector capacity.

Professor Clarke and I analyzed publicly available contracting data from federal departments, specifically the proactive disclosure of contract status set that lists contract award data. What we were looking for was trends in government IT contracting at scale. It's a classic kind of open-data problem. It's taking data that's publicly available but hard to understand or interpret and doing the work to transform it into something that's more insightful and easier to read and understand. You can see the results at govcanadacontracts.ca. I'll skip over our approach in the interest of time, but you can read about the methodology there.

There are a few questions that we can answer pretty confidently. In other cases, it's a bit more tentative given the data quality. One of the main takeaways is that this past fiscal year the government spent about $4.7 billion on IT procurement across all departments and agencies except for the Department of National Defence, which we categorize separately.

Of that, about $1.9 billion was spent on IT consultants and contractors, $1.2 billion on software licensing, $840 million on devices and equipment, and about $750 million on telecoms and other miscellaneous IT costs. These are all costs per year. Corrected for inflation, it's about a 27% increase in IT spending overall between 2017-18 and 2021-22.

Information technology is now the second-highest category of contract spending after facilities and construction. On the website, you can see who the largest IT providers are. Over the five years that we looked at, three companies received an average of over $100 million per year, which cumulatively is about 22% of total government-wide IT contract spending. Another 10 companies received an average of more than $50 million a year or about 17% of total IT spending. We don't have any publicly available data on how concentrated these companies are, for example, in the national capital region or, for example, how many of them are fully based in Canada.

The other question we were curious about was the number of IT contractor and consultant staff currently working at federal departments, typically with departmental laptops, emails and building passes. Our research team filed some access to information requests and none of the departments that responded had data available on the number of IT contractor staff working there, so we used some other publicly available IT expenditure data and we estimated that there are about 7,700 IT contractor staff across departments. In comparison, the government has about 18,000 in-house IT staff. In both cases, again, this excludes DND. Overall, for the core public service, that's a ratio of about one IT contractor for every 2.3 full-time IT employees.

From ATIP responses that came in this past month, we learned that the average per diem or daily pay rate for IT professional services contractors in federal departments is about $1,400 per day. These per diems go from as low as $230 per day to as a high as $2,800 per day. In comparison, a government IT-2 average employee salary is about $400 a day, including salary and benefits, and the average IT-5 salary is about $650 per day. An IT-5 is the highest-level tech employee in the public service. There are only about 500 or 600 of them across government.

What's challenging is that with the data that's publicly available, it's hard to evaluate whether the amount that the government is spending on IT is good or bad, and whether the ratio of outsourced IT contractors to in-house IT staff is appropriate. The source data isn't consistently linked to specific IT projects. There isn't public data on how those projects panned out. Essentially, without knowing whether IT projects turned out successfully or not, it's hard to say whether the money that was spent on them was worthwhile. There is some publicly available data on government IT projects that are larger than $1 million, thanks to a parliamentary written question. If you search for large Government of Canada IT projects, you can find recent data from earlier this year.

Professor Clarke can speak about this in more detail, but there's a strong relationship where the larger an IT project is, the higher its risk of failure. Our research puts into perspective that ArriveCAN, although it was a lot more publicly prominent than other government IT projects, is fairly small in scale compared to the government's overall IT spending totals.

I think the note I would end on is that it's great to see this level of interest in government technology work. More transparency on how we work as a public service, how we procure or build digital services and how we learn and improve them is really important.

Thanks so much for your time.

Thank you for your attention.

I'm happy to answer your questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Mr. Boots.

I share your concern over ATIPs. I have many that are actually five years outstanding still.

Professor Clarke, you have five minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Amanda Clarke Associate Professor, School of Public Policy and Administration, Carleton University, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the committee for having me here today.

I'm Amanda Clarke and I'm an associate professor at Carleton University's school of public policy and administration. For the past decade or so, I've been studying digital government reforms in Canada and internationally.

When I first read about the ArriveCAN app, I have to admit I wasn't particularly shocked. Its cost is actually a tiny percentage of the government's annual IT contract spend, as Mr. Boots just illustrated, and certainly it's not the most outrageous contract that I've seen over the years. But when I say I wasn't shocked, it's more because ArriveCAN's story is pretty standard. Reliance on a staffing agency to fill gaps in in-house capacity, insufficient research into how the app would be used by frontline staff or the public, sloppy public communications around data stewardship—this is a pretty classic government technology story.

The committee has the policy brief that Mr. Boots and I prepared based on our analysis of the federal contracting data. In my remarks, I really want to focus in on what I think is the key question at play here, which is what it would take to build a federal public service that can better manage technology projects like ArriveCAN, because that's where we all want to get to.

The most important step is to earnestly invest in the digital competency of the federal public service. We've long chosen, both deliberately and by unconscious habit, to turn to private IT vendors and management consultants to fill what are glaring gaps in digital expertise in the federal government. In turn, very little has been done to hire and train public servants such that the government could make sensible, accountable and strategic decisions about technology. We let the muscle atrophy and none of us should be surprised today that it can't do much heavy lifting.

This is a problem for two key reasons. One, if you don't have sufficient in-house IT expertise, you simply can't be a smart shopper when you go to buy IT services, software and equipment. This helps explain why in our analysis the federal government regularly breaks accepted best practice in modern IT procurement. The contracts are too big. They're too long. The government doesn't prioritize open source or public ownership of intellectual property. The government locks into vendors and finds itself with few escape routes if a vendor underperforms.

The second reason that you need to build strong in-house capacity speaks to the fundamental role of technology in today's policy process. Everything governments do is shaped by the digital systems informing that work, and all government activities today result in some sort of digital output. It's simply not enough to treat technology as something that happens after the real policy work and that can be largely outsourced as a result.

Acknowledging this after decades of outsourcing as a default, leading digital-era governments are now aggressively hiring technologists. They're appointing senior leaders like Ms. Luelo who have a deep understanding of technology and its role in the policy process. They do this because they've realized that governments can build beautiful services that genuinely improve people's lives. Further, they realize that the state is, in many instances, far better positioned than private actors to produce trustworthy, reliable and inclusive digital public services. Notably, this consensus globally is shared by governments on the left and on the right. This is not a partisan debate that's happening here.

The question, then, is how the federal government can catch up with this trend. As I said, first we really need to earnestly commit to hiring tech talent. This will require being honest about salary scales, career progression models, evaluating bilingualism requirements and loosening requirements to be in the office. It can be done, though, and the Canadian Digital Service is truly a success story here.

Second, more can be done to upskill existing public servants through dedicated training, and I'd really like to see this training focus in particular on senior leaders. The vast majority of leaders in the current federal public service have never been asked to understand technology and its role in the policy process. In fact, in some cases those leaders purposely divorce themselves from decisions about technology because they so often end in failure. That learned helplessness is no longer acceptable.

The last point I want to make, though, is that hiring and training will do very little if the broader administrative culture of the federal public service remains the same. Public service leaders and researchers have long complained that the federal government is excessively risk-averse and burdened with unhelpful processes, reporting requirements and webs of opaque, nonsensical rules. This stifles creativity. It overly restricts the autonomy of public servants. It encourages apathy. It's near impossible in that context to build strong digital products, even if you have all the talent on staff.

The thing I really want to make clear is that we're not starting from zero here. There is an immensely talented group of public servants like Mr. Boots who are trying to do good technology work in the federal government but in a context where it's often hard to do the right thing. It's easier to not try to be innovative and creative and push the boundaries. Many of these public servants are burning out; they're ready to leave or they already have.

The key thing is that we address long-standing management and organizational failures in the federal public service. If we don't do that, any effort to bolster digital capacity is going to fall flat.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks, Professor Clarke.

Mr. Stewart, go ahead.

3:45 p.m.

Rob Stewart Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon to the members of the standing committee.

My name is Rob Stewart, and I'm the deputy minister of international trade. Until October 16 of this year, I was the deputy minister of public safety, and I believe that is the reason you are asking me to appear before you today. My remarks will focus on my time in that role.

As members are aware, the role of Public Safety Canada is to support the Minister of Public Safety and coordinate across portfolio agencies, namely, the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, the Canada Border Services Agency, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, Correctional Service Canada and the Parole Board of Canada. We are not mandated to provide oversight over the agencies; rather, the department's principal role is to bring a coordination function to the public safety portfolio and its five agencies.

Today, I will provide a brief overview of the timeline of the ArriveCAN app's development and use when I was deputy minister of public safety.

As you heard in previous testimonies, the ArriveCAN app was developed and launched as quickly as possible after the World Health Organization declared a pandemic on March 11, 2020. As the Public Health Agency of Canada and the Canada Border Services Agency stated, the app was developed to help limit the spread of COVID-19 and facilitate the flow of travel. It was developed on an emergency basis, and was up and running on April 29, 2020.

The application was needed once it became clear that the Public Health Agency of Canada could not efficiently manage a manual, paper‑based process to pass health information to the provinces and territories. This information was needed to quickly carry out compliance and enforcement activities, including quarantines.

As such, ArriveCAN is not a simple information-sharing app; it's a secure transactional app and web tool that used the internationally recognized SMART health card standard to verify proof of vaccination.

The CBSA did not have all the resources needed to develop and manage ArriveCAN while it continued to perform its essential day-to-day function in managing the border. For this reason, the CBSA used several professional services contracts for the development and maintenance of ArriveCAN based on their expertise.

As the pandemic situation evolved, the Government of Canada made regular adjustments to border measures under new orders in council.

There were, I think, over 80 orders in council, in total, over the two-and-a-half-year period. These changes were to ensure Canada's COVID-19 response remained effective, but they also meant regular updates to ArriveCAN. Some of these adjustments were minor, whereas others, such as proof of vaccination, molecular attestations and quarantine plans, were very significant.

Each of these needed to be developed and tested prior to launch to ensure the app was up to date and secure. That would be on several platforms, several technologies, and in several languages. To that end, the total budget for ArriveCAN also includes all the necessary work to operate, maintain, and upgrade the app. That included 70 updates and upgrades as the COVID measures changed.

That is the context in which this work took place over the past two and a half years.

I would be happy to answer your questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Mr. Stewart, thanks very much.

We'll start with six minutes from Mr. Barrett, please.

November 17th, 2022 / 3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Stewart, who came up with the idea for ArriveCAN?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

I don't know the answer to that, as a matter of fact. It was, in my understanding, part of a suite of digital tools the CBSA was developing with the aim of digitizing the border and better managing the border. When the pandemic arrived, I believe it was converted to the use as a screening tool.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay, thanks.

Mr. Stewart, was the minister aware that GC Strategies was given one of the contracts to develop ArriveCAN?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

I do not believe so.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Is that unusual, that he would not be aware of a contract?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

Not at all.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Were the minister's staff, including yourself, aware of GC Strategies being given the contract for the app?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

No. Again, and I can't provide assurance, but as a general matter, when an organization like CBSA, which is a very large organization with many IT applications and many other services that require contracting, does that, they do it under the authority delegated to them. They are not required to, nor would it be efficient for them to, report on all those contracts to the minister.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay.

Who would the authority on this ArriveCAN file have been delegated to in your department?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

It was not delegated to anyone in my department. It was done under the authority of the president of CBSA and CBSA as an institution, which is a direct report to the Minister of Public Safety. The Department of Public Safety's role, and my role, was to participate in the discussions that went on around managing the border. That is how I am aware of the ArriveCAN app.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Okay.

When were you first briefed about ArriveCAN?

3:50 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

It came up early in the discussions as we were managing what was, at that time, the very rapid closure of—or limits put on—the Canadian border. That would have been in March 2020. I can attest to the fact that the minister at that time, Minister Blair, was very anxious to have the CBSA get a tool in place that would allow the border to be better managed, because wait times were increasing and complaints were rising.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

When would Minister Blair have been first briefed about the ArriveCAN app as the tool that he was looking for?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

In my best guess on that, it was March 2020.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON

Who would have briefed the minister?

3:55 p.m.

Deputy Minister, International Trade, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Rob Stewart

It would be President Ossowski and his team.