Government Operations Committee on Dec. 5th, 2022

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

In your opinion, what about certain federal departments? Which ones are easier, and which ones would you say are more difficult?

[Ray Wanuch]

We love to work with all the federal government departments. We believe in relationship building. It takes time. We're not based in Ottawa. We have some people on the ground there, though. We love working with Indigenous Services Canada, with Natural Resources Canada, with PAC. I'm on a strategic committee with PAC.

Believe me, I'm not answering for the other indigenous organizations, but it's been fairly easy for us to get a voice at the table with our partners. That what I call them. I like to view us as stakeholders, not rights holders. Those are our communities. Our communities now are coming to us and asking us to state these questions and draw out that information. Like I said, we just facilitate the process.

To come back to the question, I haven't had a department that has said no to me yet.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Ducharme, I'll go back to you since you were the one who mentioned the activity of first nations in the natural resources sector. In your opinion, are there sectors that are easier for indigenous businesses and sectors that are more difficult for indigenous businesses to enter?

[Philip Ducharme]

Well, actually, it can be both. If you look at the construction industry, indigenous businesses have made a lot of strides in it, but there are also lots of requirements that sometimes indigenous businesses struggle to meet regarding insurance and regarding bonding that are a barrier to entry for them.

With national defence, I have to say that Defence Construction Canada has probably led the charge. They actually go out to our indigenous businesses, a number of whom have called me to say that Defence Construction Canada has called them about an opportunity. I think they've been playing a big role in trying to increase it. The defence sector as well has been really promoting indigenous procurement to their prime vendors. I participated at a defence conference two weeks ago. All those big key players now are looking to bring in indigenous businesses because of the indigenous participation plans within the RFPs. I think that's an area our businesses will be able to come into.

Again, indigenous businesses encompass every sector and industry across the country. We are so fortunate to hear of new businesses that are coming up and the innovative products and services they provide. We work with all levels of government. Any time we hear about any opportunity, we try to make sure that our indigenous businesses are aware of these opportunities.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much. That's your time.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Go ahead, Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all our witnesses. These have been great testimonies.

During responses to a number of questions and also in your opening remarks, a number of you talked about economic reconciliation. I would be very interested in getting a better understanding of what you mean by economic reconciliation as it relates to indigenous procurement. Aside from the 5% and where we are now, what would you consider to be the building blocks of economic reconciliation?

As well, how would your organization partner with the government to be able to make sure that we actually deliver? This is the message I'm hearing: We need to partner and we need to make sure that we deliver.

I'll start with the first person I heard comment on economic reconciliation. I believe that was Mr. Metatawabin, please.

[Shannin Metatawabin]

Thank you very much for that question.

I believe economic reconciliation is as simple as ensuring that indigenous people are part of the economy. We have faced many barriers, and we continue to face them even today. Access to capital is one of them. Having the right ecosystem to ensure that we can be part of this system, the right capacity, training programs, access to information, processes that are adequate for us to participate—those are all things that we need improved. Barriers that have been systemically put into place don't allow us to participate.

I think if we can address all those areas and have an indigenous organization that represents all the partners around the table, with the witnesses today being part of that, it would ensure economic reconciliation.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Ms. LaBillois.

[Victoria LaBillois]

It's a fabulous question. Thank you.

I'll begin by saying that when I take a look around the landscape in this region—I'm talking about Gaspésie and Mi’gma’gi—we were not destined to be poor on our own homelands, but often we find ourselves as spectators to the regional economy that's happening around us. If I look to the industries that are active here, we have commercial fisheries and we have forestry. The latest we have is wind energy. Most often we've been watching people get rich off our land and resources. We have been excluded from it for various reasons.

We've touched upon some of the systemic issues. We've touched upon some of the legislation that contributes to this exclusion from participating in regional economies. I also stated that it's indigenous businesses that hire indigenous people. This is what we need in order to support the creation of indigenous businesses and growth. This growth in building skill sets and capacity can be increased with a solid procurement policy.

You asked about building blocks. I think a fundamental building block for us is indigenous financial literacy. We know that financial literacy is not taught in schools. If we look at our communities, and at what is non-existent in the business landscape, our people are accustomed to managing poverty. It's a mentality of scarcity. We need to shift that mentality to managing the abundance and managing finance through financial literacy.

Thank you.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I only have about a minute and 15 seconds, so please be quick, Mr. Wanuch.

[Ray Wanuch]

It's training, navigating the system, facilitation, early engagement and mentoring. If the goal is to have an indigenous prime contractor in this country, we're going to need a lot of hand-holding, capacity development and reduced complexity of the whole process. I think that is going to help us.

There are many different ways we might want to do this, but if you look around at what we're doing today—coming together and bringing our energies and skills from all the national organizations—we're going to chip away at this and get there.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

The last 30 seconds are going to Mr. Ducharme.

Go ahead, Mr. Ducharme.

[Philip Ducharme]

I think reconciliation is respect and having indigenous people as full partners in any type of development. Again, we've been on the outside looking in. We get bits and bobs handed to us. For true, meaningful reconciliation, we are sitting at the table.

Look at all the different industries, as well. Economic reconciliation could also mean board members. Within the last two years, we've had three indigenous people assigned to boards, two with national banks and one with a national telecom company. Again, reconciliation is us being full participants and partners, not just customers.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you.

Mr. Barrett, you have five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'm going to give my time to Mrs. Kusie.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mrs. Kusie, then, has five minutes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Barrett.

Mr. Metatawabin, indigenous businesses are eligible for this procurement strategy if at least 51% of the firm is owned and controlled by indigenous individuals, and if the firm has six or more full-time staff, where at least one-third of the employees are indigenous.

Do you agree with these eligibility criteria?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

Right now, we are in the process of fine-tuning that “indigenous business” definition.

I think 51% is a minimum, but there are a lot of social impacts that would require that other firms be eligible. If they're making an impact in the indigenous community, there needs to be a mechanism to recognize those impacts. I think ISC is in the process, right now, of a short-term strategy that recognizes 51%, but then you have land claim processes and the social impact measurements, but yes.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you believe these criteria should also be enforced on subcontracts?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

For ancillary and subcontracting, I think if there's a social impact in the indigenous community, that score should definitely be elevated.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

To expand on my initial question, do you think the enforcement of the criteria is useful and effective?

[Shannin Metatawabin]

I don't believe it is, right now. I think we can do a better job of ensuring we have the right definition and accountabilities, and the mechanism to select and provide contracts that are actually with indigenous businesses.