Government Operations Committee on Dec. 12th, 2022

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you. I would appreciate that.

[Christine MacIntyre]

As Mr. Wheeler mentioned, I would be pleased to come back to the committee once I've had a chance to study more clearly the recommendations, but I can say that one thing our office has done since 2004 is produce and publish on our website an annual report that gives an overview of our activities and the costs involved in our department and our partner departments.

This is publicly available, and this is a practice that we undertook, I think, in response to that period in time. I believe that the 2004 appearance at the committee was in response to Governor General Clarkson's visits abroad, if I'm not mistaken, but I would come back to the committee with more information.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, Mrs. Block.

Ms. Thompson, go ahead for six minutes, please.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses. I really appreciate that you have come today. I think it's important. You have acknowledged transparency and accountability, and thank you for that. I do think this is an important conversation.

Ms. MacIntyre, I'll begin with you. Again, thank you for also recognizing that some of the costs we have seen are unacceptable.

To that end, could you please speak to the discrepancy between the information that you were able to provide in September when you came to the committee last and what we subsequently saw in media following that, where the food was more elaborate than what was indicated that day?

Could you speak to that discrepancy, please?

[Christine MacIntyre]

Absolutely.

Let me be clear. As I've said before, the costs of the catering were unacceptable. The comments made during the previous experience in September were based on my experience of being involved with official international visits over many years. I was giving an example of food that was served on the Middle East flight that was consistent with food that had been served on previous government flights that I had been on. I was not attempting to justify or normalize these costs in any way. I was trying to provide context to the committee about why, when learning about the costs of the visit, I was so surprised.

The OSGG has asked our partners from the air force and Global Affairs, who are responsible for this process and make decisions regarding menus and procurement, to do everything possible to find efficiencies in the costs that we can control. As the general mentioned at his previous appearance, there are a certain number of costs related to catering that cannot be controlled, and he can speak further to that. We've also asked them to raise flags when required. This is part of the improvements that have been made to the process since that time.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

I realize the work of the Governor General's office is incredibly important—and increasingly so, if that's even possible—in an increasingly polarized world, but in light of the challenges many Canadian families are facing today in terms of rising food costs and just general affordability....

Ms. MacIntyre and Mr. Wheeler, could you address that for Canadians in terms of the media release after that September committee meeting in terms of the cost, the role of the Governor General's office and the work that's happening in light of that perceived extravagance on a state visit?

[Christine MacIntyre]

Perhaps I can start by reiterating that the Governor General and her office are not involved in any way in the procurement or selection of the catering, but we have participated in a working group that has been set up by my colleague Mr. Wheeler and my colleague General Kenny. As the air force is responsible for the procurements, I would actually invite them to tell you about the work they have been doing, which we're very encouraged by and which I encourage them to continue as much as possible.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Please go ahead. That was my next question. Thank you.

[Stewart Wheeler]

Before passing it to the general to comment as well on the improved processes that we've put in place, I just want to reiterate that our office works with the offices that you see here to deliver and secure the logistics of Governor General travel abroad, because the Governor General plays an important role in international relations. When the government—the Prime Minister on behalf of the government—requests the Governor General to travel abroad, it is to achieve specific objectives and advance key messages that Canada is pursuing on the world stage and that Canadians can be sure are advancing Canada's objective of facing some of the global challenges that are having an impact here at home as well.

The office of protocol, for our part, is committed to transparency. As I mentioned, we routinely release, through the public accounts, all of our spending and follow all Government of Canada financial procedures. While we work closely to deliver these visits, we are always able to improve our processes. We recognize that the system we had in place was not delivering the kind of oversight and control that Canadian taxpayers deserve, so we're here to assure hon. members that we are committed to improving it. In fact, we have put in place a number of improvements already.

What's really important for members is that we are empowering our teams now to work together to create a no-nonsense environment where they are routinely flagging any exorbitant costs put forward by caterers or other suppliers so that alternative choices can be made and so that we can make decisions to forgo standard elements that we may have taken in the past.

We are committed to identifying and implementing cost savings. We have been working together over the last couple of months—our teams—at identifying very specific outcomes that will change the variable parts that Ms. MacIntyre referred to, where we are able to control those costs.

I don't know, General, if you have some specifics you'd like to mention.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I think that could be during the next round.

Thank you, Ms. Thompson.

Ms. Vignola, you have six minutes, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Kenny, Mr. Wheeler and Ms. MacIntyre, when we saw each other in November, none of you were in a position to give us any specifics on the Governor General's expenses, other than the total cost, which was surprising. The next day or in the days that followed, the newspapers revealed exorbitant costs. They mentioned the equivalent of $565 worth of ice, $110 for 4 litres of apple juice and $526 for lemons and limes.

Why weren't you able to tell us about this when the newspapers knew about it before we did? That's a little surprising.

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you for your question.

In the intervening period since we met in September, we have looked at all the costs associated with catering specifically, to your question. There are five components that make up catering costs. I'll just go through them very quickly. The first one is the meal cost itself.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I'm sorry, but you are not answering my question.

How is it that the newspapers got the information before us, and even before you?

It seems to me that you should have known about it, but perhaps that's just my opinion. You should have been able to tell us before the newspapers knew. I don't understand how you didn't know, and the newspapers did. What's the process?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you for the question.

Some of the information was released as part of an access to information request, which was made available to those who requested the information. My role is to be as transparent as I can be to the committee about what I know at the time I am providing you with the information. Since we met, I have learned a lot more about the costs that go into catering. I'd be happy to share some of those details.

It was never our intention at all to deceive or to provide you with false information. It's just that some additional information has come out since then.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Mr. Wheeler, in the documents we received, we see that it was necessary to send a team of 12 people in December 2021 to prepare for the trip to the Middle East.

Because I'm not familiar with matters of protocol, I wonder if it's not the role of embassies to do some of that preparation. Also, why did it take 12 people?

[Stewart Wheeler]

Thank you for your question.

With respect to high-level tours, preparatory trips are essential when we travel to host countries where official meetings with representatives are scheduled.

Representatives of the Protocol Office and the Office of the Secretary of the Governor General are present on these trips. The team also includes representatives of the Royal Canadian Air Force, which is responsible for planning flights for the official group. Also on the team are members of the RCMP, who meet with their counterparts responsible for high-level security.

These individuals are supported by our teams in the region. Those responsible for the tour have discussions with their counterparts in the host country.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I can understand that the RCMP has to be present to have a look around, find spots that could be problematic or pose a danger to the Governor General and those with her.

Nowadays, it's wonderful, we have the technology. From a purely diplomatic and protocol standpoint, would it be possible to have virtual meetings? Do meetings absolutely need to be face-to-face?

[Stewart Wheeler]

Increasingly, early in the planning process, we're using virtual modes of communication to do many things that previously would've been done by email or on the telphone. This certainly helps us get ahead when we're planning trips like this.

On the other hand, when we organize a trip where several options will be presented on site by the embassies, the group will travel with the organizers to see the various options and get a feel for the distance travelled. They can then negotiate with the companies that will provide the services. Due to the complexity of certain tasks, it is necessary that discussions take place in person.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

When you are—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that's your time.

Mr. Johns, we'll go to you for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you very much for being here and testifying today.

With inflation at levels not seen in decades, many Canadians have been forced to cut back on food. In fact, 1.5 million Canadians are using food banks, right now. We're also seeing growing distrust of our public institutions.

Against that backdrop, it's concerning to see public funds spent on high-end meals, like $2,660 on beef Wellington, or extremely inflated items, like $270 for sliced lemons or $565 for ice cubes. Can you speak about how these expenses might breed distrust in our public institutions?

I'll start with Mr. Wheeler.

[Stewart Wheeler]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and the honourable member.

When we spoke with you on September 22, we'd already begun some work identifying exactly what drivers were responsible for some of those costs, which we, too, found exorbitant and unnecessary. Our teams have been working closely with the Royal Canadian Air Force, and we've implemented the following cost efficiencies, which I will point out.

There will no longer be any choice of meal for passengers in the main cabin, which will produce significant reductions in overage for us, in terms of the total number of meals ordered for a flight. Meal selections will be sourced as is from caterer menus, with no requested changes. As we determined through this process—and we thank you for bringing these things to our attention—those discussions with caterers were causing undue increases, often without our knowing what the caterer was going to charge us for final changes, because of the nature of some of the catering restrictions we face.

We decided, as a policy, that snacks will be minimal. Soft drinks and snacks will be sourced in Canada—likely in Trenton—so we can take advantage of bulk purchases here and store them on the aircraft. We're not using catering services for those purchases, for example. Things that would normally be part of standard international air travel, such as ice and drink garnishes.... We'll be looking at all those costs, as well. Certainly, drink garnishes will be eliminated from service. As well, disposable cups will be used in the main cabin to minimize cleaning costs that we cannot control.

Those are among a number of changes already made and producing savings.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I appreciate that. Were you aware of what the government would be charged for ice cubes and lemons? Was any effort made to negotiate or renegotiate these costs either before or after the trip?

[LGen Eric Kenny]

Thank you for the question.

Mr. Chair, I'll take that one.

The reality is that, with global catering services right now, it's quite difficult, as I expressed last time on September 22, to get quotes in advance of these catering contracts. As one example, we flew the Prime Minister, many governor generals and former prime ministers for the Queen's funeral to London. As we reached out to get catering costs, we were told that, for operational reasons, the caterer could not provide us those costs because of the high volume of people coming in at that time. In this particular case, we received the receipts and the costs after the fact.

That is not the policy we wish to use. We are working with all the catering companies. We ask them for quotes in advance, but we do not always get that, unfortunately.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I do appreciate that, sir.

Is the working group that has been established focused solely on controlling costs for in-flight catering, or is it looking at ways to control other travel-related costs like vehicle rentals and communications? I mean, there are other costs related to travel.