Government Operations Committee on Feb. 15th, 2023

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you.

What is your timeline to really bring this digital system to a place where the processes will follow the timelines you've set out? How long do you think that's going to take?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

It depends on which stream of immigration you're referring to. We're already back to the prepandemic service standards for family reunification and federal express-entry cases. We're very close for new applications for work permits and study permits. We expect visitor visas to get back this year as well.

Despite the fact that we might get back to the prepandemic service standards, we can still improve the quality of service that clients get in particular in terms of getting information about their own cases and ease of access to the system. Ms. Kwan actually pointed out a very good issue that we need to continue to work with representatives on to allow them to have access to their client systems and to make simple edits as things come up.

I expect that over the next several years we're going to have a start-to-finish digital process both in terms of how we process things internally and in terms of how users interface with the system. It won't be as though we have to wait the entire time to get a moment where we flip the switch. We're continuously adding digital functionality to the system as new features are ready to deploy.

[Joanne Thompson, Liberal, St. John's East, NL]

Thank you. Certainly, coming from a province that has great ambition for immigration numbers, I really appreciate that.

From that space, if we could go back to the COVID pandemic, the realities of what was happening in the country during COVID and then geopolitical realities, how did that time affect the second contract, the recommendations and the need to go back and accelerate the work?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm afraid that is our time. I'm in the habit of interrupting the minister today.

Perhaps you'll get to that in the last round.

We're now in the last four interventions.

Mr. Garon, you have two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You know, it can be very frustrating sometimes to not get answers from the minister and, obviously, I made an inappropriate comment about his mastery of the French language.

I want to tell the minister that he speaks French very well. I apologize and ask him to accept my most sincere apologies.

That said, with regard to the motion initiating this study, I'd like to ask whether we've received any responses or refusals from the ministers whom we've invited.

Where are we at with that?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Be a bit more specific please. Is this for the documents we've asked for or for the witness—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I'm talking about ministers who would appear, based on what's indicated in the motion. I'd like to know whether there's any news about ministers who've agreed or refused to come testify.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

They've all accepted, except for the Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Finance and the Minister of National Defence.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chair.

If the Minister of Immigration could exert pressure on the Minister of National Defence to get her to change her mind, it would be appreciated. I'm making an official request here.

Now, I'd like to ask him a brief question.

Minister, I'm not necessarily saying that this happened in Canada, but I'd like to tell you about one of McKinsey's practices. It was mentioned in a report by the French Senate. It's the foot-in-the-door technique. McKinsey did unpaid work for the government, in order to then have easier access to contracts.

I'm not saying that this happened in your department, but, generally, do you believe it's an acceptable practice, be it here or abroad?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I think it's essential that we have rules in place to deal with how contracts are awarded and that those rules are followed. I'm only aware of instances in a Canadian context when those rules were followed.

I don't know if my deputy can supplement that response, but I'm only aware of circumstances that follow the official process at the department level.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

I'm satisfied with the answer, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to quickly address one last thing.

McKinsey has a strong presence in your department. Contracts were granted and advice was provided. However, the firm isn't listed on the lobbyist registry.

Does that make you uncomfortable? Do you think that this could be the result of an error and that it should be changed?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I don't believe it's an error. I think it's essential that lobbying rules are respected. For the sake of clarity, the reason I don't think it's an error is that they weren't even on our internal consultation list, let alone lobbying list, when it came to the development of our immigration levels plan. There would be more than 500 organizations represented on that list.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Garon.

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Kwan, it's your final two and a half minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

The minister said that he was not engaged in any of the McKinsey contracts' awarding and the deputy did not speak with him about it. Of course, that is the case. Why? Because the minister was not appointed until 2021, and the contracts took place in 2018 for the first round of the contract and 2019 for the second contract. Therefore, it predated the minister's seat at this table and it predated the deputy's seat at this table. Of course, they had nothing to do with it.

That said, there is a real question. The minister raises the issue around the lack of capacity within IRCC, hence the requirement for contracting out.

My question to the minister is how much funding was allocated within the department for training and skills development, specifically for this. Also, on recruitment and retention, did IRCC implement any of the PIPSC recommendations from the collective bargaining process? If not, why not?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

You'll forgive me for not having the information front of mind, Ms. Kwan. If I could defer to my deputy to provide whatever information she may have, I would be grateful.

[Christiane Fox]

I can say that, absolutely, we invest in our workforce, both in training and in learning. I would say that part of the benefits of the McKinsey contracts was the digital talent lab, which produced 160 IT professionals who now work for the department. They have built on the lessons that they learned in the early days and are now implementing some significant changes, like digital applications for citizenship—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I have limited time, so maybe the officials can table the documents on the funding that was provided for training and skill development, as well as the issue around the recommendations that were adopted from PIPSC.

I want to ask this question: Was McKinsey involved in the AI development for IRCC? Were they involved in the Chinook development?

[Sean Fraser, Liberal, Central Nova, NS]

I'll again defer to my deputy. I'm not familiar with any role they may have had specifically with those tools.

Deputy, if you're able to provide any response, that would be great.

[Christiane Fox]

Yes, definitely as part of the work they did in the second contract, they were looking at road maps and efficiencies in the system. Part of that was Chinook, which is a bulk processing tool. That was part of the digital transformation.

I think we can speak to some very specific—

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I wonder if the deputy can table to the committee specifically the work that McKinsey did related to AI development, as well as Chinook.

We were told at CIMM that Chinook was done in-house. This is clearly not the case then, if McKinsey was involved.

[Christiane Fox]

It was in-house.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. Can I interrupt, Ms. Kwan?

I'm not going to put words in your mouth, but are you seeking the will of the committee to ask that these documents be tabled?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Yes, I am.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

If so, do I have my colleagues' approval?

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

If I may, for all of the documents that I've requested throughout the entire proceedings, could I have the committee's support in requesting and receiving those documents for the committee's review?