Government Operations Committee on March 1st, 2022

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Ms. Fortier.

I have a lot of questions to ask you about the budget, which I have dissected, but first I am going to address the question of French.

I know that improving the status of French in the public service is one of your objectives. In recent months, there have been newspaper articles about how francophones are often bilingual but anglophones aren't. Using French on Zoom has been difficult. For example, even plumbers in remote regions like Port-Cartier on the North Shore are being asked to be bilingual, in case there are anglophone prisoners. The same requirement does not exist in Ontario or the Prairies, for example.

In 2016, $50 million was spent on francization courses for public servants. How can the effect of those courses on anglophones' level of bilingualism be measured, at the end of the day?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you very much for your question.

We have to keep doing more to encourage bilingualism in the public service and offer incentives for public servants to provide services in both official languages. The representatives of the Treasury Board Secretariat, the TBS, can talk more about this, but I know there are a lot of training programs for public servants.

We also do evaluations to see how these programs are received in the regions. This may take the form of an employee satisfaction study that lets us know how they feel.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

First, how much is spent per year on French courses for public servants?

Second, I would like to know the effects of these courses. I am not talking about public servants' degree of satisfaction with the courses. Do you observe a concrete increase in bilingualism and the use of French? Often, there only needs to be one anglophone in a room for ten francophones to start speaking in English, out of courtesy or for other reasons, whatever.

Do you see greater use of French during meetings in the public service, or is it the minority language?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That's an excellent question, but I don't have the figures with me. We can send them to you later.

What needs to be pointed out is that each department has plans for making sure that official language requirements are followed in its offer of services, depending on the regions that are designated or essential services. You would have to look at what departments have improved and what others still need to improve in this regard. I can't give you all the details right now.

However, I can tell you that the Commissioner of Official Languages is helping us to determine the aspects that need improvement. As you know, the Commissioner is not backward about sending us information on complaints or studies. I had the pleasure of meeting him recently.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

I am going to continue on the question of French.

You collaborate with Public Services and Procurement Canada, or PSPC, on contracts, for one thing. There is still a problem with translating contracts, which were hard to obtain in French.

What concrete measures can your department take so that all departments that do business with PSPC, without exception, make sure that documents are actually translated and not translated with Google?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I would like to be able to answer directly, but I would not want to speak for the minister, Ms. Tassi, who is responsible for that department.

Having said that, I would guess that Ms. Tattersall may have some information that is needed for answering your question.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

You have a policy about this too.

[Samantha Tattersall]

Just to further elaborate, we have updated our Treasury Board policies on procurement. We're very explicit in that policy that communications with contractors and suppliers, including debriefs, need to be undertaken in both official languages, or in the official language requested by the contractor. We have enhanced our policies to that effect.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Yes, but in spite of that update, some departments are having a little more trouble.

What measures do you intend to take, in concrete terms, so that the departments that are having more trouble make sure that the documents are published in both official languages?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

There is high demand for getting documents translated, and we know there are sometimes shortfalls. However, measures are being taken and Ms. Girard could name some of them for you.

[Marie-Chantal Girard, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Thank you.

The language profile is determined based on the position and the responsibilities, not based on the individual. That is how we determine whether language training needs to be given, under the authority of the deputy minister of the department. That is how we ensure that services are offered in the desired language.

The Secretariat continues to make efforts and consider the options available to it for modernizing the second language training plan, since the public service is changing. That would make bilingualism accessible to all public servants, in particular members of employment equity groups and Indigenous employees, who might have special language training needs.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Ms. Girard.

Madame Girard, if you can provide further information, it would be appreciated.

We'll now go to Mr. Johns, for six minutes.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Minister, for being here with your staff.

Minister, in the supplementary estimates, there's $349.3 million dedicated to funding the P3 Canada fund through public-private partnership projects. How much, and what proportion of that money earmarked here, is going to outsourced contracts to private companies?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That's a very specific question, and I think Annie will be able to respond.

[Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

The amount that you see in supplementary estimates (C) is a reprofile that was initially slated for another estimate. This reprofile funding for the P3 Canada fund will support the delivery of remaining approved ongoing projects to which Canada has legally committed.

The need for reprofiling is attributed to different project cost claims and adjustment of construction schedules, as well as ensuring that appropriate funding is available upon the completion of the remaining projects.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm just trying to get an idea of how much is outsourced. What percentage is outsourced?

[Annie Boudreau]

I will continue and maybe that will answer your question.

Following the dissolution of PPP Canada, the office of Infrastructure Canada took over the legal responsibility to continue managing existing agreements. The $349.3 million is specifically for the following three projects: AMT Pointe-St-Charles maintenance project in Montreal, the Edmonton Light Rail Transit system, and another one in the Northwest Territories.

Regarding how much we're going to be outsourcing, that's a question for Infrastructure Canada, which is responsible for the implementation of these projects.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you for that.

Minister, I wrote you a letter in mid-January about outsourcing. I reminded you about your party's commitment in 2015, when your party promised that while in government, they would focus on reducing the use of external consultants. There was an analysis published in The Globe and Mail that said that it's not happening; rather, the use of consultants under your party's watch has increased a staggering 41.8% since your government took power. I want to remind you that this spending has totalled over $12 billion in the 2020-21 year.

Outsourcing and the privatization of public services have time and time again only proven to increase costs, add risk to taxpayers, reduce the quality of services, erode the internal capacity of the public service, create precarious work and undermine initiatives that address pay equity and systemic racism. A report by the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada emphasized how your government often initially awards a contract that on the surface offers relatively low cost and value for money, only for the contract costs to be substantially increased once it's been awarded.

There's no greater example of outsourcing failing than the debacle with the Phoenix pay system. It's a scandal that, since its launch five years ago, has still not been successfully resolved by your government. The costs incurred related to the Phoenix pay system were reportedly $560 million. That is now twice as much as the federal government spent to set the system up. It is a system with a stated purpose of generating long-term savings, but it has only managed to outsource its expensive failings to the Canadian taxpayer.

The consultancy firm McKinsey has been contracted by your government to help fix the Phoenix pay system, originally for the cost of $4.9 million, but this contract has now been amended three times. The estimated cost of the contract is now $27.7 million, which is an increase of 565%.

This culture that permeates your government of allowing highly paid consultants to repeatedly change the cost of their work ever upward is not only fiscally irresponsible, but an insult to Canadian taxpayers who work hard and play by the rules. As the President of the Treasury Board, you have the opportunity and ability to stop the government's increasing drive to outsource and privatize public services, which decades of overwhelming evidence has shown will lead to higher costs.

Will you commit to taking an evidence-based approach to public service delivery and ensure that, wherever possible, the government contracts in-house, rather than wasting hundreds of millions of dollars on highly overpaid consultants?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on how you perceive the government investing in outsourcing.

Our government is really committed to providing high-quality services to Canadians. At the same time, we want to ensure the best value for taxpayers. That's why contracts are issued in a fair way in accordance with the Treasury Board policies that we have.

The procurement of professional services is used to complement the work of Canada's professional public service by meeting unexpected fluctuations in workload and to acquire special expertise. The response to health care needs in remote northern communities is a good example.

Another—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I'm sorry. I only have 15 seconds left.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

May I finish? I have more to tell you, if I can.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Go ahead.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I want you to know that a strong federal public service is the best way to deliver for Canadians. We're developing a long-term, government-wide public service skills strategy, including increasing the number of public servants with modern digital skills, because that is something we are lacking. We are working to make sure that we bring in more public servants who will be able to serve Canadians.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister.

We've finished our first round, and we will now go to the second round.

We'll start with five minutes for Mr. McCauley.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Minister, welcome.

Very quickly on the vaccine mandates—99% is fantastic—is there a plan to include mandating boosters? Is there a long-term plan for the mandates for public service employees?