Government Operations Committee on March 1st, 2022

[The Chair (Mr. Robert Kitchen (Souris—Moose Mountain, CPC)), Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Welcome to meeting number seven of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

Today we will be hearing from the President of the Treasury Board regarding the supplementary estimates and the departmental results reports. We'll also discuss committee business during the last 30 minutes of the meeting.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members are attending in person in the room, and remotely using the Zoom application. Regarding the speaking list, the committee clerk and I will do our best to maintain a consolidated order of speaking for all members, whether participating virtually or in person. I'd like to take this opportunity to remind all participants in this meeting that screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

Given the ongoing pandemic situation and in light of the recommendations of public health authorities, as well as the directive of the Board of Internal Economy on October 19, 2021, to remain healthy and safe, the following is recommended for all those attending the meeting in person.

Anyone with symptoms should participate by Zoom and not attend the meeting in person. Everyone must maintain two-metre physical distancing, whether seated or standing. Everyone must wear a non-medical mask when circulating in the room. It is recommended in the strongest possible terms that members wear their masks at all times, including when seated. Non-medical masks, which provide better clarity over cloth masks, are available in the room. Everyone present must maintain proper hand hygiene by using the hand sanitizer at the room entrance. Committee rooms are cleaned before and after each meeting. To maintain this, everyone is encouraged to clean surfaces, such as the desk, the chair, and the microphone, with the provided disinfectant wipes when vacating or taking a seat.

As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

I would like to welcome the President of the Treasury Board and her colleagues. It's so nice to see such a full room for the first time in such a long time. Thank you to everybody who is here, and to those who are attending via Zoom. Hopefully soon, we'll be able to get you all here as well.

That said, I invite the minister to make her opening statement, please.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, President of the Treasury Board]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is a great pleasure, in fact an honour, to appear before the Committee as President of the Treasury Board for the first time to discuss the Supplementary Estimates (C), 2021‑22.

With me today, in person and virtually, are various officials from the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Allow me to introduce them, Mr. Chair. They are Annie Boudreau, Assistant Secretary, Expenditure Management Sector; Karen Cahill, Assistant Secretary and Chief Financial Officer; Marie-Chantal Girard, Senior Assistant Deputy Minister, Employee Relations and Total Compensation; Monia Lahaie, who is participating virtually, Assistant Comptroller General, Financial Management Sector; Samantha Tattersall, Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector; and Paul Wagner, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Transformation.

I would like to thank them all for being here with me today.

Supplementary Estimates (C), 2021‑22, are the third and final component of the supplementary estimates planned for this fiscal year. Regarding Supplementary Estimates (A) and (B), these estimates set out information about supplementary spending needs that was not ready in time to be added to the main estimates or that was subsequently refined to take recent developments into account.

Canadians are entitled to know how public funds are spent and to ask the government to account for them. That is why we continue to prioritize the manner in which these estimates are presented, accompanying them with detailed explanatory documentation that is readily accessible online for parliamentarians and Canadians. It should also be noted that reporting tools such as the Government of Canada's InfoBase and the Open Government Portal make it easy for Canadians to consult the spending approved by Parliament.

Mr. Chair, allow me to offer an overview of the supplementary estimates for the government as a whole before moving on to the funding requests for my own department, the Treasury Board Secretariat. In these supplementary estimates, the government is asking Parliament to approve voted budgetary expenditures of $13.2 billion to meet the numerous challenges Canadians are facing at this time. The supplementary estimates provide information about $3.9 billion in revisions to statutory expenditures, in particular to fund the Canada Worker Lockdown Benefit and ventilation improvement projects in schools.

A majority of new investments support Canadians' common priorities, including combatting COVID‑19 by acquiring rapid screening tests, vaccines and therapeutic products; addressing the impacts of climate change; supporting housing, education, water treatment, healthcare services, and emergency response activities for Indigenous Canadians and their communities; funding housing and infrastructure projects; and supporting military operations and personnel.

My own department, the Treasury Board Secretariat, is requesting funding to re-establish a centre of expertise for real property to improve federal real property management. The centre of expertise will implement recommendations from the government's horizontal fixed asset review, which was completed in 2021, and support departments in responding to real property changes resulting from the COVID-19 pandemic.

Treasury Board is also seeking $2.8 billion to meet the government's obligations under the court-ordered White class action settlement agreement and to ensure that settlement payments are not interrupted.

TBS is also requesting funding for adjustments due to changes to collective agreements and to reimburse organizations for eligible pay list expenditures such as parental allowances and severance pay.

Before I close, allow me to touch briefly on the department results report for my department.

These reports are an important part of a broad set of reports to Parliament that provide transparency in government spending for Canadians and parliamentarians. Specifically, the department results reports measure progress towards objectives set out in annual department plans, giving parliamentarians and Canadians a clear view of the results achieved by federal organizations and how resources were used to achieve those results.

In the case of the Treasury Board Secretariat, the report details results for 2020-21, including ongoing efforts to improve diversity and inclusion in the public service, transforming service delivery to support Canadians through the COVID-19 pandemic and continuing to provide government-wide leadership towards net-zero green and climate-resilient government operations.

Now I'd like to say a few words about each of these reports.

Treasury Board launched a suite of initiatives in consultation with equity-seeking employee networks to improve diversity and inclusion. These include the release of disaggregated data, programs to help address barriers to recruitment and promotion at the executive level, and amending the Public Service Employment Act.

In addition, today we tabled legislation to modernize the Official Languages Act to strengthen bilingualism in the public service. We are supporting women in the federal workforce by working with bargaining agents to identify and close any gaps that exist by increasing compensation for employees in predominately female jobs not receiving equal pay for work of equal value.

Our government set ambitious targets to reduce greenhouse gas emissions from federal operations by at least 40% below 2005 levels by 2025, and by 90% by 2050. Our steps to realize these goals include building zero-carbon buildings and maximizing energy efficiency in existing ones, using nature-based solutions to protect assets from natural disasters, and transitioning to a net-zero circular economy through green procurement.

Finally, to make our work sites and communities safer, last fall we required vaccination across the public service. I'm happy to report that over 98% of the core public administration are fully vaccinated.

Before I close, I would like to take this opportunity to thank our hard-working public servants. Over the past two years, they have been tireless in their efforts to protect the health and safety of Canadians while putting in place essential new supports that Canadians depended on.

Mr. Chair, the supplementary estimates (C) demonstrate our government's ongoing commitment to improving Canadians' quality of life and effectively responding to the COVID-19 pandemic. They also play a vital role in supporting Parliament's review of how public funds are being spent and in holding the government to account.

With that in mind, I would like to thank the committee for its thorough review in its ongoing study of government spending to support Canadians.

My officials and I would now be pleased to answer your questions. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Minister.

We will now go into our first round of questioning, and we will start with six minutes for Mr. Paul-Hus.

Mr. Paul-Hus, go ahead.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Minister. Thank you for being with us in person, together with a significant portion of your team. I am pleased to see you.

There is nothing in the supplementary estimates relating to cyber security, although we find ourselves in a unique situation at present. At Treasury Board, you have produced the Directive on Service and Digital.

Can you confirm that Government of Canada systems are now well protected in terms of cyber security?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you. I am also very pleased to be here in person and to be able to answer your questions, so that we can have a conversation.

The government makes constant efforts to improve cyber security in Canada. It prepares for all types of cyber incidents in order to protect Canadians and their data.

Treasury Board works in close collaboration with the Canadian Centre for Cyber Security and with other partners. We want to make very sure that we are able to investigate cyber events and respond to them when they are reported.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I am aware of that. I'm going to ask you a more specific question.

On January 24, the federal agencies confirmed that we had been the target of a cyber attack. Your department confirmed the incident and stated that mitigation measures had been taken. We have not heard any other details since then.

Do you know where the cyber attack came from?

At this time, we know that Russia is engaging in coordinated cyber attacks in Canada. Did that cyber attack come from Russia?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you again for your question.

As you know, the Treasury Board Secretariat is working very hard on this.

I am going to ask Mr. Wagner, who works with me, to try to give you the details you are looking for.

[Paul Wagner, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategy and Transformation, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Good afternoon.

Thank you very much.

As the minister has said, we work very closely with Shared Services Canada and with our colleagues in the government, internally, to mitigate these threats.

In terms of the threat you are talking about, we are still working to determine the source. We are not in a position to give you more information about this. It is a constantly evolving situation, particularly within the government as a whole. We are currently keeping a close eye on the entire infrastructure.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

Normally, there are cyber attacks committed against government systems all the time. The director of the Communications Security Establishment, the CSE, confirmed at the time, when she appeared before the Standing Committee on National Defence, that there had been one million automated attacks per day, if I recall correctly.

However, given the war that has broken out in Ukraine and the Russian threats, are government systems being attacked more directly, more obviously?

What do you know about the situation?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you for your question.

Since I have been at the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have experienced a number of cyber attacks of various levels. There are four levels of cyber attack.

We have analyzed these cyber attacks to make sure we are prepared to respond to level 3 and 4 cyber attacks. Level 1 and 2 attacks are also very important, of course.

Because we know we could be threatened, we have coordinated with all the teams in the various departments that have a role to play. As soon as a threat comes in, we are informed and we immediately deal with the situation horizontally, if I can put it that way. We are much better organized than we were before.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you.

I would like to ask you a question dealing with a completely different area.

Regarding government purchases in relation to the construction of 15 frigates, do you think, as Treasury Board President, that it is reasonable or right to pay $77 billion for 15 frigates?

That figure has been determined by the Parliamentary Budget Officer. National Defence itself says it is $56 billion to $60 billion.

What figure do you have? Is it reasonable to pay that much?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

As you know, the Treasury Board Secretariat receives requests from various departments when they are ready to move forward.

We are continuing to examine this issue, of course.

I am going to ask Ms. Tattersall, who works with me, to give you more details regarding your question.

[Samantha Tattersall, Assistant Comptroller General, Acquired Services and Assets Sector, Treasury Board Secretariat]

When we get requests at Treasury Board, they will come in, we will do our due diligence and we will look at the costing that's associated with that project request.

We have a centre of expertise on costing that works with the Department of National Defence to look at the costing range that would be appropriate.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

Thank you for your answer.

Do you currently have a more precise idea of the costs?

We are talking about the largest procurement contract in the history of Canada. The Parliamentary Budget Officer, with his team, does what he can to get us figures, but we are unable to get anything more precise from the government.

Do you have more precise figures regarding the 15 frigates?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

At this point, I do not have the precise amount. However, I know that Treasury Board will have to examine the figure when the department submits it.

So I could answer your question better then.

[Pierre Paul-Hus, Conservative, Charlesbourg—Haute-Saint-Charles, QC]

I would like to come back to the beginning of my question, and I will conclude with that.

As Treasury Board President, do you think this expenditure is acceptable?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I look at whether expenditures are acceptable, are responsible, and whether they meet the various criteria we have in the government. We also examine the level of risk.

So I am going to be looking at all these factors in order to be able to determine whether the figure is correct or not. I will then inform the department accordingly.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you.

Now we will go to Mr. Kusmierczyk for six minutes.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister. We're absolutely delighted to host you here at OGGO today.

I had the great honour of hosting you in our community in Windsor—Tecumseh during pre-budget consultations when you were the Minister of Middle Class Prosperity and associate finance minister. I want to extend our congratulations for your new appointment in this role.

I want to take a step back. For those who may be a little bit unsure or unaware of the role of the Treasury Board, I want to ask if you can start off by explaining to the committee what the role of the Treasury Board is. Is it the Treasury Board that is responsible for approving all federal expenditures? Can you provide us with a bit of a broader view before we begin with some of the other questions?

Thank you.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It's great to see you, Irek. Hopefully we'll be seeing each other in person very soon, or maybe I'll get a chance to go back to Windsor.

I want to thank you. It's really important that we know that Treasury Board has a role and is responsible for spending authority, and that we provide due diligence and approve program parameters to set out departmental submissions, including any voted amounts to be included in the estimates and related appropriations bills.

We are the biggest employer in Canada and have the privilege of working with almost 300,000 public servants. We have the privilege of really making sure public servants can serve Canadians. We also approve collective agreements.

Also, we establish the rule sets for people, information technology, expenditure management and regulations, and we review spending plans on departmental initiatives and decisions that affect services we deliver to Canadians. Under my mandate, we also have the digital strategy mandate and greening government.

As you can see, the Treasury Board has many responsibilities, and I'm very proud to be the president at this time with a great team.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

As the largest employer, it was remarkable when I saw that over 98% of employees are fully vaccinated, which I think is a remarkable accomplishment. Keeping them safe and healthy and looking after their well-being, obviously, are huge priorities.

On that note, I want to turn our attention to the fact that COVID-19 measures, in general, accounted for well over half of the authorities under these supplementary estimates, totalling, I think, $9.8 billion. For the year, that actually brings the total COVID-related authorities to just a shade under $60 billion, if I'm not mistaken.

I just want to ask, Minister, if you can tell us how the money that's been requested by Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada will help us in the fight against COVID-19 and to protect the health and safety of Canadians.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

I think you said it. The health, safety and well-being of all Canadians are of the utmost importance to the government. For the last two years, we have been focusing on and prioritizing the safety of Canadians and focusing on reducing the number of people who have COVID and also on reducing the deaths we have in our country.

For these supplementary estimates, approximately $6.7 billion of proposed votes spending is for the ongoing response to COVID-19. This amount includes $4 billion for the procurement of rapid test kits to meet increased demand in provinces and territories, $1 billion for additional therapeutics to treat COVID-19, and $1 billion to support emergency measures related to the pandemic.

As you know, we have to continue to make sure we respond to the COVID pandemic, and this is what we are presenting to you today.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

You mentioned that $4 billion has been earmarked for rapid tests, which is a huge number. Minister, of that $4 billion, how much is that costing the provinces, for example Ontario? Is that a cost-share with the provinces and territories, or is that $4 billion simply the federal government stepping forward and saying it will cover the full cost of the rapid tests?

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

It's 100% from the federal government.

As you know, since the beginning of the pandemic, the federal government has invested $8 out of every $10 invested to fight COVID-19. Many of these investments have been transferred to the provinces and territories, for example vaccines, rapid test kits, and PPE. Schools also received funding through the provinces.

In this case, MP Kusmierczyk, the $4 billion is all from the federal government.

[The Chair, Conservative, Robert Gordon Kitchen]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk and Minister.

We'll now go to Mrs. Vignola, for six minutes.