Evidence of meeting #80 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was rcmp.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Erin O'Gorman  President, Canada Border Services Agency
John Ossowski  As an Individual
Minh Doan  Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Duff Conacher  Co-founder, Democracy Watch
Franco Terrazzano  Federal Director, Canadian Taxpayers Federation

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 80 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates, also known as the mighty OGGO, and also commonly known as the only committee that matters.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Monday, October 17, 2022, the committee is meeting on its study of the ArriveCAN application.

Very quickly, as usual, colleagues, keep your microphone away from the earpieces, as it causes feedback and potential injury for our interpreters.

I have to say, in accordance with our routine motion, that I'm informing the committee that all witnesses appearing by video conference have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting.

We welcome back Mr. Ossowski, Ms. O'Gorman and Mr. Doan.

Welcome for the first time, Mr. Doan.

We have opening statements from Ms. O'Gorman and Mr. Ossowski.

We'll start with you, for five minutes, please, Ms. O'Gorman. We are short on time. I ask that you stick to five minutes so that I don't have to rudely interrupt you.

Please go ahead.

3:35 p.m.

Erin O'Gorman President, Canada Border Services Agency

Good afternoon.

Last fall, I received a complaint from Botler AI with respect to its experience in establishing a contract with the CBSA to provide a chat program that would assist employees in understanding workplace harassment.

The complaint outlined allegations relating to the potential procurement of a product by Botler AI. I was not familiar with any of the engagements that had taken place with the company, nor was I familiar with its product. I learned that the CBSA had done some pilot work of the Botler AI product from February to December 2021, but there was no ongoing relationship or contract with it.

Given the nature of the allegations—specifically, allegations of misconduct by officials at the CBSA in the context of procurement—I referred the matter to the agency's professional integrity division, which, following its initial review and consultation with me, referred it to the RCMP. Should there be findings of criminality, I would expect the RCMP to pursue them. If misconduct is found, the CBSA will take appropriate action.

In January 2023, the Auditor General launched a performance audit of ArriveCAN. We have facilitated the Auditor General’s work, and we will continue to do so.

But let me assure you that I am not waiting for the outcomes of these processes to take action. It was clear that improvements were required with the procurement function at the agency. In fact, when I appeared before this committee in November 2022, I stated that “we will continue to look at ways that we can be fair, open and transparent in our procurements and that we will try to provide the most responsive procurements possible”.

In January 2023, I asked our internal auditors to launch an audit of contracting—that work is still under way—and increased managerial oversight over the procurement process. Employees with financial delegation and with contracting authorities at headquarters have been directed to retake procurement and financial management courses.

I have given direction to rebalance our use of internal and external IT. The CBSA maintains more than 180 IT systems. They are critical systems that ensure the movement of people and goods across the border.

We are the second-largest revenue collector in the government after the Canada Revenue Agency.

Like many critical systems across government, some of our systems are old. As such, we need to make sure that in decreasing our use of contractors, the CBSA does not open up a gap in the technical knowledge required to service these systems.

Sound stewardship is critical to our success in modernizing the border service experience for our officers, for travellers and for businesses.

In summary, we have and will continue to strengthen the internal management of contracts at CBSA.

I look forward to the results of our internal audit and, particularly, the performance audit being conducted by the Auditor General. We will act on their recommendations and, needless to say, we will take all appropriate action relating to any founded allegations of wrongdoing.

Merci.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thank you very much. I appreciate your keeping that brief.

We'll go to Mr. Ossowski for five minutes, please.

3:35 p.m.

John Ossowski As an Individual

Thank you for the opportunity to add some clarity to my testimony from December 8, 2022, when I testified during the committee's study of the ArriveCAN app, as well as to respond to inferences made in the Globe and Mail article published on October 6, 2023.

First, I retired on June 24, 2022; therefore, when I appeared last December, I did so as an individual, without any access to my business records. I answered all questions truthfully and to the best of my recollection. When I answered Mr. Barrett's question on whether I had contact with Mr. Firth from GC Strategies in my role as president of CBSA and I answered no, I did so because I had no recollection of ever meeting anyone from GC Strategies on ArriveCAN or any other matter. Given this lack of recollection, it never occurred to me to verify this with the agency.

It now appears that there was, in fact, one virtual Teams meeting on September 29, 2020, which I attended to receive a demonstration from another company, Botler AI, on a matter completely unrelated to ArriveCAN, and it included a representative from GC Strategies. The agency has provided me with the meeting records, and there were 12 people in attendance, including me, as well as a representative from GC Strategies identified simply as “Kristian@GCStrategies.ca”. The agency has told me that this was the only meeting in my records that shows a representative from GC Strategies attending a meeting with me, and I have no recollection of any other meeting in any form with a representative from GC Strategies.

Mr. Chair, Mr. Curry's October 6, 2023, article conflates two separate issues, and despite having made it clear to him that I had not verified my testimony with the agency, because I had and still have no recollection of ever meeting Mr. Firth, the article states that my testimony should be called into question. Mr. Curry's rationale for this was that I failed to remember every individual who participated in a virtual meeting I had over three years ago. In hindsight, I should have verified this with the agency sooner and clarified this with the committee, and I apologize for any confusion this has caused.

Finally, with respect to the allegations regarding Botler AI, the agency has searched my records and told me that I was never briefed on any of the allegations made by Botler AI before I retired on June 24, 2022, nor have I been contacted by anyone regarding any of these allegations.

Mr. Chair, that concludes my statement. I would be happy to answer any questions.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley

Thanks for your opening statement. Before we start with Mrs. Kusie for six minutes, I want to extend a special welcome back to our analyst, Lindsay. Long-time OGGO folks will know she was with us for quite a while, went back, and is now on the Senate side.

Thanks for filling in today. It's wonderful to have you with us.

Now we have Mrs. Kusie for six minutes, please.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for being here today. It actually seems to me that the opening statements reflect a lightness of the matter.

This is, in fact, a very grave matter before the House of Commons and before Canadians. In fact, I would say that this is a matter of importance that probably rivals any scandal in Canadian history. This is not to be taken lightly. This is not something that can be overcome with performance objectives, evaluations or managerial criteria. We have to get to the bottom of what happened, since the RCMP, of course, are currently investigating allegations of identity theft, forged resumés, contractual theft, fraudulent billing, price fixing and collusion in the creation of this $54-million app. This is a big deal.

As I mentioned when I moved the motion to extend this study, in the beginning this was an exercise in an attempt to find value for Canadians, which I remind everyone, some of the Liberals actually pooh-poohed and turned their noses at, as though there was nothing to see here. Now we know that things are so much different. It is now a quest to get to the truth, so that's what we're going to attempt to do here today.

In addition to me, you are going to have to face the prosecutor, Larry Brock, as well as my colleague, Garnett Genuis.

I'll start with my questions.

Mr. Doan, what was your relationship to John Ossowski at CBSA?

3:40 p.m.

Minh Doan Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

He was my deputy minister and president.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

What was your relationship to Cam MacDonald?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

He reported to me.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

What was your relationship to Mr. Firth?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

I did not have a relationship with Mr. Firth.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Who made the decision to go with GC Strategies instead of Deloitte?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

My team made that decision.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Were you involved in that decision, personally?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

I was not personally involved in that decision.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

As CIO of the organization at the time, you mean to tell me that you were not fundamentally the individual who made the decision to go with GC Strategies instead of Deloitte. Who would you pin that one decision on?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

That was made by my team. I believe right now, with the current allegations that are under way.... I do not know who I would identify that to. That's part of the investigations that are currently under way.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

If we went through all of your communications, we would see that you had no communication with Mr. Firth.

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

I did not.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Okay.

Was a minister ever involved in making this decision?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

Not to my knowledge.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Was the public safety minister at the time ever involved in making this decision?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

Not to my knowledge.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Stephanie Kusie Conservative Calgary Midnapore, AB

Did you receive a promotion immediately before Mr. Ossowski left his role at CBSA?

3:40 p.m.

Chief Technology Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat

Minh Doan

No. It was well before he left.