Evidence of meeting #81 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cbsa.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Was Ms. Belanger the acting CIO of CBSA later when you sent your whistle-blower report?
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
You mentioned earlier, and Mr. Genuis asked, about these players having “dirt” on each other. Can you maybe just take a minute to expand on that? What does that mean?
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
We don't know exactly what kind of compromising material they have. For example, when a résumé is being forged and is being submitted as part of a TA, and when a contracting authority signs a task authorization that has a forged résumé there, that's something that the contracting authority is basically.... It could be used for extortion.
On the other end of it, let's say Mr. Firth engages in similar conduct. Let's say he forges a résumé, submits it and gets caught. Then the contacting authority would have some compromising material on Mr. Firth and could then direct Mr. Firth to do other criminal activities.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Obviously, the prospect of individuals collecting kompromat about people who presumably all have government security clearances is concerning in the context of these apps, which have access to Canadians' personal, private and medical information, particularly in an age where we're dealing with foreign interference by state actors. Surely if the “mutually assured destruction”, as you described it, could be used with respect to individuals engaged in alleged criminality, then it could be used by foreign state actors to extract access to or extract information about Canadians, or to gain access to our networks. Would that be fair to say?
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
That would be very accurate.
An individual who has basically engaged in conduct that is criminal is the perfect target for any sort of foreign interference operation. When bad actors try to recruit, they won't recruit a normal public servant. They go to someone with authority, someone like a contracting authority, who has access to systems, information and data, and then that individual would be the perfect target to be recruited.
Conservative
Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON
Okay. Thanks very much.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Morv, it seems to me that you were the one doing most of the heavy lifting during the pilot configuration, because you were away for personal reasons. I'm going to summarize, and then I'm going to move away, because I have to ground this for our team when we go back.
There was a good relationship with CBSA and a partnership that goes way back before the actual start sometime in February 2020. You worked well together to configure the system, and the understanding during all this time was that a contract will be formed with CBSA. That's what you believed.
Then you were informed by a contracting person from CBSA that, for your contract, you were now required to go through Dalian. Is that correct?
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
That is not correct.
GC Strategies was the entity that said the contract will go through Dalian. It was not the CBSA. The CBSA told us we have to work with GC Strategies, and GC Strategies will be the entity that will subcontract our work.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I'm sorry. Let me just make sure I understand.
All of the first part is true. Then when it comes to contracting, you were told by the CBSA contracting body that you'll be working with GC Strategies. GC Strategies then came to you and said that now you're going to be a subcontractor to Dalian.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
GC Strategies just came and said that this is how the contract was done, but that is correct. We were supposed to be the subcontractor of GC Strategies, but then Dalian showed up out of nowhere.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Dalian showed up, and then we know all the numbers and know the 20%, etc. Thank you for that.
When was the first time that you heard about ArriveCAN?
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
In terms of ArriveCAN, I don't recall exactly.
Chief Executive Officer, Botler
I can provide an answer to that.
The app that became ArriveCAN was something that Firth would regularly speak to. When we were first interacting with him, starting in November 2019, he used it as an example. At the time, it was supposed to replace those immigration cards for border crossings. That was eventually then turned into ArriveCAN with the groundwork that was already complete.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
We have the background.
You heard of ArriveCAN, not in the form that it is now but as one of the projects that the CBSA was also working on with regard to electronic visa processing from abroad.
When did you hear about ArriveCAN, that somehow your résumés or some of the hours or resources from your company were charged to...? I'm still very unclear on the relationship with ArriveCAN. You're saying that somehow, as part of a TA, something happened. I'm trying to get clarification on that.
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
I think that's the confusing part for everybody: how ArriveCAN was actually built and how ArriveCAN was contracted. ArriveCAN was built as part of a series of contracts. The work under these contracts was implemented through a document called a task authorization. The same contract that was used for ArriveCAN was used to pilot Botler. It was the same standing offer, the same supply arrangement, between Dalian and Coradix and government that was used.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Is it fair to say that there was a pool of money available, apparently from the CBSA, so that the contract or the transaction somehow allowed the CBSA to be able to be flexible enough to use that TA number to pay for the pilot as well as for ArriveCAN?
Under any circumstances, did any of your times or résumés show up as part of the jobs for ArriveCAN?
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
I think that's something that should be investigated, because we don't know whether our names are—
Chief Technology and Security Officer, Botler
We don't know about that. That's correct.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Because of the extensive relationship they have, can you kindly forward to the committee all the documents, whether it's email, whether it's text or whether it's your recollection of what the conversation was with the CBSA around your engagement on the pilot, within the agreed timeline that we have.
You have an extensive relationship with the CBSA that is all good and is based on trust. We need to make sure that we establish that, as well, to be able to follow.... I formally request that you submit that, please.
I'm out of time now. Thank you.
Conservative
