Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Cameron MacDonald]

Botler would have been a task authorization on an existing contract. I've provided it for your thing. It would have come through as Dalian and Coradix. They would have looked at it for form and fitness. They would have looked at it for compliance within the contract, because the contract itself had a scope and had categories, and PSPC would have done the same thing.

When the contractor then, the prime contractor, who is Dalian, responds to the request, they respond to it with an estimate of the cost, the resources, the security certificates and everything, and that goes through the contracting people. We do the vetting in terms of the contracting team outside of the PSPC, to ensure that they meet the grids, that it's fit and that it's compliant, and then I would sign the task authorization.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

There have been references in regard to the modus operandi of GC Strategies and how they act. They're sort of a two-man show, but they assemble all the experts to provide for contracts, as they did for ArriveCAN.

That's not what they did with Botler. They actually partnered with Botler to try to come forward with an opportunity to do a big deal thereafter. I think that's part of the reason that they're upset, because that didn't come to fruition.

They also made reference to a cabin or a cottage or a chalet. Is that you? I mean a lot of allegations are made about your relationship with Firth. Can you explain?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I just want to be unequivocal about this. I've never had a contractor, a vendor or anybody at my house or at my cottage. I have a little cabin in the woods. I go there sometimes—especially during the pandemic—to get away from things, as I was working extremely hard.

I've met Kristian Firth three times out of a workplace in my entire life. Two of those times were after the pandemic and after ArriveCAN started. Two of the three times were with Mr. Utano and my mobile development team. I was there for about 15 or 20 minutes. I have had lunch with Kristian Firth one time, after the pandemic, before I left the CBSA. I paid my own bill. Those are all the interactions I've had with Mr. Firth. I've had only a professional relationship with Mr. Firth.

I do have fairly informal relationships with people, as I've told this committee. People call me “Cam” all the time. They know they can reach me. I leave my calendar open. I answer my phone. I try to be as open and available as I can to employees, staff and peers.

I was asked to work with private sectors, so anything new or innovative, or anything that sounded interesting, I would obviously be interested in. Mr. Firth had partnered with several different companies in the private sector. He told this committee that he worked with 22 other government departments. He had some $40 million dollars in sales, and he had been fairly successful at doing it. People talk in town.

Mr. Utano can testify to the fact that we called a couple of different departments and did a reference check to see if the work was good—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. That's time. Thank you, Mr. MacDonald.

Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you, Mr. MacDonald, for clarifying your secondary residence. There was quite an issue last Thursday as to whether or not...cabin, camp, tent, chalet. Thank you for clarifying that.

There is another area I want clarified, sir. I've listened very carefully, and if you said it once you may have said it a half a dozen times, as well as you, Mr. Utano, in terms of being very unequivocal in your responses that it was Mr. Doan who was responsible for retaining GC Strategies with respect to this Botler contract.

I want to confirm that again. That is your evidence. Is that correct?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I will try to say it to you as clearly as I can, but I need a minute. I will give you as much time as you want. I don't have a hard time to leave.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Can you reduce it to 30 seconds?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Doan saw the proposal that I sent him after I received it and asked for a meeting. Mr. Doan had a meeting with Botler and saw a demo. He told me to get them ready for an executive presentation. I have my notes—they are in there. The president, the VP of HR, the CFO and others saw the Botler presentation. They were interested in it, and there was general consensus that we should go ahead with some work.

I worked with my peers at the DG level to develop a statement of work, which was for a feasibility study, not a pilot. I emailed my boss and told him that I was using an existing contract, and I sought permission to go ahead. I received endorsement to go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Again, you and Mr. Utano did not specifically seek out GC Strategies to be the ghost contractor. Is that correct?

[Cameron MacDonald]

No. We received a proposal from Botler and GC Strategies.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

So the answer is “correct”.

[Cameron MacDonald]

That's correct.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

How do you then reconcile, sir—and this is a question for you, Mr. MacDonald—a year and a half after you leave the CBSA, that you write an email to Mr. Doan, as well as to other members of CBSA—Ms. Sabourin, Mr. Utano and Mr. Bird—on October 29, 2022? I'm quoting various passages in this particular email, attributable to you. One says, “You asked me for advice on the key question of 'Why GC Strategies' but I also think we are all grappling with 'Who selected GC Strategies'.”

If you're so unequivocal today—November 7, 2023—why were you equivocal on October 29, 2022?

[Cameron MacDonald]

As I explained, Mr. Chair, I wrote that email to Minh Doan after I had been threatened. I wrote that email trying to give Minh Doan words that he could use at this committee.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to caution you, sir, and if you don't want to answer this I can understand. Your lawyers are present. There is some really damning information in this email, which in my view, as a former prosecutor, encroaches upon criminal law in terms of interfering with witness testimonies.

You're actually specifically coaching them on what to say with anticipated questions put to them.

I'll give you some examples:

I will start by saying that I was not personally familiar with...GC Strategies...during the time in question

If pressed: Come on, we want some accountability here. Who decided? How did this company get a contract for almost 9 Million dollars? Who made money off of this? Who is getting rich off of taxpayer dollars

Mr. Chair, I stand by my statement that I don't believe there was a single person, and I'm not actually aware of any rules being broken or wrong doing. That is not how we operate at the CBSA.

Why are you coaching witnesses who have been compelled to attend at a committee to tell the truth? What on earth compelled you to give these suggested answers to them, sir?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair, I was emailed, by Minh Doan, a briefing package. I believe it was Wednesday of that week.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did he ask for your advice on what to say?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes, he asked me for my help.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did he ask your advice on what to say at committee?

[Cameron MacDonald]

He asked me for feedback on his briefing—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'll ask again. Did he ask your advice on what to say at committee, sir? Yes or no.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Generally, yes. The reason I can say that is because his briefing package was just full of facts and data, and it had no verbiage. He commented to me that he did not have the words to use, which is why I wrote what I wrote.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Did someone coach you on what to say today?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I practised. Yes, I did.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

No. Did someone other than you coach you on what to say?