Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

In your 20-plus years, have you ever seen a project this complicated come together this fast?

[Antonio Utano]

I've heard quoted that it was one of the most complicated integrated projects in our time.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I appreciate that context.

My Conservative colleagues would have provided you $200,000 to complete this ArriveCAN project. What would have happened to travel along the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor if you had a $200,000 ArriveCAN app? What would have happened to Canadians, to their information, their private information, had you been given only $200,000 to create the ArriveCAN app, as my colleagues across the table would have done? What would have happened to privacy, to trade, to medicines coming through the border...? Could it be done?

[Antonio Utano]

What we built through all those months and years could not, no, not for $200,000—it would have been impossible.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

What the Conservatives would have had built for Canadians to use in their time of crisis would have been junk.

[Cameron MacDonald]

It wouldn't have worked.

[Antonio Utano]

It wouldn't have worked.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

It would not have worked.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Kusmierczyk.

We have Ms. Vignola for a final round, please.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. MacDonald, in your presentation, you said that the feasibility study had six parts, each worth $70,000, and that the work did not include a pilot project.

Do you know how much of that $70,000 was going to Botler AI, GC Strategies, Dalian and Coradix?

[Cameron MacDonald]

No, as public servants, we do not have that information. We never get into discussions about the financial aspects of our partners' activities.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

In evaluating a contract and its financial aspects, would it be a significant improvement and easier to say that having “sub-sub-sub-sub-subcontractors”—I'm exaggerating, but sometimes I feel like it's not such an exaggeration—is not profitable? If we award a contract to someone, we must not have two, three or four subcontractors. Would it be a solution to say that we're stopping this madness?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I'm an information and technology specialist, not a contract specialist. I don't think it would work very well if we knew everything. We want to leave space for the private sector, to engage together to solve problems, without politics. That's only for the private sector, but I don't have any expertise in contracts.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Okay.

With regard to ArriveCAN, GC Strategies received $9 million for finding specialists. Other companies were also approached. Do you remember which ones they were, as well as the part of the work they did?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes, there were more than 20 companies in total. If it's okay with you, Mr. Utano can answer in more detail.

[Antonio Utano]

There were over 19 technology vendors we partnered with our CBSA internal employees, and 19 other vendors. Examples were Amazon, Blue Ink, TEKSystems, BDO..., and I'm just going off memory, Madam.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Among the companies that were approached, did a number of them have a strategy of using subcontractors or “sub-subcontractors”? Is that common practice?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Yes. As I understand it, many of the technology companies or computer companies that the government works with use subcontractors, particularly in the case of unique or complex projects.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

Are we still continuing to put money into ArriveCAN now that it's really optional?

[Antonio Utano]

I don't know, as we're not at the Canada Border Services Agency right now.

[Julie Vignola, Bloc, Beauport—Limoilou, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Ms. Vignola.

Next is Mr. Johns, please.

Go ahead.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Mr. MacDonald, in the brief you provided the committee this morning, you described Ms. Dutt as trying to “circumvent the procurement and contracting process and contract directly with the CBSA” despite not being an approved vendor. Are you aware that Botler AI is an approved vendor?

[Cameron MacDonald]

I have been made aware that Botler is an approved vendor. They became, as far as I understand, an approved vendor, but on a pre-qualified list, which is not a standing offer with the Government of Canada, and they did so only, to my understanding, in Q3 of 2021, well after I signed the TA.

Also, I think in Mr. Firth's testimony he said that he helped them to qualify on this invitation-to-qualify list. I'm not aware of Botler's—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It's my understanding that Botler has been a qualified vendor under band 2 of the AI source list since November 2020, which allows it to provide work for up to $4 million before taxes. The Treasury Board makes this information publicly available.

Now, Botler is able to contract directly with the federal government, so it's very concerning to me that you described these many contracting layers with every pass-through. I'll call it “taking a cut”. You described that as a regular contracting process. You described Ms. Dutt's efforts to get accountability from your contractors as circumventing normal processes.

Do you consider this case to be a standard example of procurement procedures being properly followed? I'm asking specifically about the layers of subcontracting and the lack of any consent or discussion regarding timelines, deliverables and payment amounts.