Government Operations Committee on Nov. 7th, 2023

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

What did you say, Mr. Jowhari?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Summon them.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Yes. Thank you. What a great idea, Mr. Jowhari.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I suspected that.

I'll ask for the committee's permission to leave it with me with the names that I have.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Ms. Aimée Belmore]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

They agreed to be summoned. That's perfect.

[Stephanie Kusie, Conservative, Calgary Midnapore, AB]

Do you require me to read anything into the record, Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry. These are the ones for Thursday. We are summoning for Thursday, officially. I'll just read them off, because these are the ones that we have posted. We have Angela Durigan, Anita Chan and Silvana Mansour.

That is your time.

Mr. Sousa, it's over to you, if you wish to finish up.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you.

Botler's engagement was prior to the pandemic. Is that correct?

[Cameron MacDonald]

No contracting was done until after the pandemic started. The first initiation, if you will, or the first series of meetings was prior to the pandemic, yes.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

You made mention that they were not Botler specifically and not GC Strategies specifically, but certainly the contractor. That's who was put in place, yet they delivered a pool instead of a kitchen. I think you were making a reference to that.

They were not really doing the deliverables that were anticipated. Is that correct?

[Cameron MacDonald]

Botler keep saying that they did all of this work and that they were out all this money. They configured their platform as, I think, a specific example. We never asked them to configure their platform. We never asked them to do any IT work whatsoever. We asked them to prepare an evaluation of whether or not their platform would even be suitable for the CBSA.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

In comments they provided to this committee, I asked specifically if they were compliant and if, in fact, there was any disagreement with their price in their contract, and they said no. They said they had complied with the issues, but now you're telling us that was not the case.

[Cameron MacDonald]

All I can tell you, sir, is that I helped write the statement of work. I worked with colleagues in HR and finance to develop a statement of work, which was translated into contracting things. There are six deliverables here. None of them are a pilot or a configuration of technology.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That's fair enough. I'm trying to get clarity, just to make sure that we have understood it.

The bottom line is that this committee is concerned. We're concerned about the allegations that have been made. We're concerned about supposed nefarious activities.

You've heard some of the lines of questioning, talking about people not speaking the truth and basically being on the take. We're concerned that that kind of activity exists. A court of public opinion is taking hold because social media is picking up on it too. Obviously, you've been targeted in some of these respects.

I'm going to give you an opportunity to clarify some of that once again, because this is one of my final opportunities to ask you questions on this issue. We want trust in the system. It's a system that's been existing for how long? How long have you been involved in this?

[Cameron MacDonald]

It's been 23 years.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

That's with multiple parties and different governments. Is that correct?

Do you see value in the work that companies like GC Strategies provide? You obviously use them.

[Cameron MacDonald]

Mr. Chair and members of this committee, I can understand and appreciate some of the questions that are being asked and why they're being targeted the way they are.

When you're doing a whole bunch of renovations on your house, a general contractor is beneficial because they are a single throat to choke. In the case of the private sector and its partnerships, my understanding is that PSPC welcomes partnerships.

I think there's a lot of discussion around this table around whether or not subcontracting is useful and good. As a guy who has worked in IT for 19 of the 23 years I've been in government, that's not for me to decide and it's not for me to judge. I think that governments of any colour can decide to change policies if they would like, to allow or change the methods of subcontracting. That's a discussion that may need to take place. That's a study that this committee may want to undertake.

In terms of nefarious activities and some of the things that have been suggested at this committee, I have never seen that in my entire life. I've never seen something called ghost contracting. I have never witnessed, nor would I turn a blind eye to, anybody stealing from the government. I know Mr. Utano wouldn't either.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

I'm not sure how much time I have left.

Mr. Utano, it's been alleged in this committee.... You have to speak the truth; you're obliged.

We heard from the whistle-blowers—the individuals who came forward with these issues.

Are they telling the truth?

[Antonio Utano]

Mr. Chair, with respect to the allegations that were levied against me in the September 27 email, I've provided the actual email and the responses. From that perspective, I believe they've misled. They've misled people in that direction.

Anything else outside of that that does not involve me in particular, I will leave it to the committee.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Mr. MacDonald.

[Cameron MacDonald]

I believe they misled this committee. They worked with GC Strategies. They went to 10 different departments.

They've systematically told this committee that they thought they were going to make $26 million a year and that Mr. Utano had told them that they were going to make $26 million a year.

There were no such commitments made. There was no contracting put in place. The CBSA would never have contracted for the federal government. Even in terms of that, as I've clearly stated, the client for Botler wasn't IT. The client was HR. If the client didn't want that work, they didn't do the work.

I left a month and half after the Botler work started. I can't speak to the work and I can't speak to the complaints. I can't speak to the allegations that came a year later. All I can tell you is that the CBSA has never contacted me about ArriveCAN or Botler. The RCMP has never contacted me about Botler.

I've done my best to provide a fulsome recollection of events so that this committee understands what my actions were. I can speak only for my actions.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, thank you for your time today.

I need about two minutes of time with everyone.

You gentlemen are welcome to hang around and listen to OGGO intricacies, but otherwise you are dismissed.

Colleagues, on the 21st and the 23rd we had shipbuilding. We've been adding witnesses at a fast past for this study. We will not have time.

I have canvassed many of you, suggesting we push back the 21st and the 23rd for the shipbuilding line by line to later, if everyone is in agreement with that.

I suspect we have the supplementary estimates coming on the 9th. Therefore, we have to fit the ministers as well as the PBO in, unless anyone has an issue with that, specifically.

The other one that's just come up is that Thursday is the three witnesses that I mentioned for PSPC. We've been approached by Mr. Mills, who has appeared often in OGGO with PSPC. He's the ADM. He and Levent Ozmutlu, DG of the strategic policy sector, have asked if they can join the three witnesses from PSPC on Thursday as well.

I'll leave it up to you if you wish that.

Mr. Jowhari.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just wanted to clarify this. I've just been informed that the three witnesses from PSPC did not refuse to come. They are fine with coming. They've asked for some senior people to join them. A correspondence has been sent to the chair. I suggest the chair share that. I definitely support having those two senior officials join the three witnesses.

I should have done my homework better to understand who those three are, but they are junior staff. Therefore, in my opinion, there does not need to be a summons sent, because they are coming.

All we're trying to decide is whether we can have two other members joining them. I don't see any issue with that.