Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

It still doesn't give me the confidence that I'm looking for.

Ms. Kusie asked a very reasonable question. Dalian, Coradix and GC Strategies have been suspended from doing business with the CBSA. You may not be the minister of CBSA, but you are the Minister of Public Services and Procurement. When you know that companies are being investigated by the RCMP and have been suspended by another department, why are you still allowing them to get contracts across the government?

It's clearly going to take ministerial involvement to ensure that they're not doing business across the government, given what they are facing.

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

That might finally enable me to turn to Deputy Minister Reza, who will explain what is being done in that context.

[Arianne Reza, Deputy Minister, Department of Public Works and Government Services]

Thank you very much for the question. I think it's at the heart of a lot of what is going on.

As you know, we have these allegations, which are under investigation, with CBSA and the RCMP. Until the investigation is done, it is very hard for us to actually control everything because there is a level of due diligence and due process that's allowed to this Canadian SME.

In the interim, what we've done is identify every active contract and every previous active contract. We've gone through every security clearance. We continue to go through it. We've gone back and forth and said, “You must demonstrate to us the level of CVs of your audit,” and look at the services they've delivered.

I know that's an answer that may not be pleasing, but we have done a tremendous amount of work in the broader enterprise, even where CBSA is not the contract manager, and the work order that we—

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Ms. Reza, are you saying that you're checking all the CVs? We know what happened with GC Strategies and the edits they made, which were fraudulent clearly. I just want some certainty.

I think what we're trying to say to you is that these are serious allegations, enough for a whole department to suspend activities.

I'm going to leave it for a second, because I need to go to a question here. Your government has committed to spending $21.6 billion to highly paid consultants on outsourcing for services for Canadians. My understanding is that you're going to cut 15% of what you've allocated for outsourcing.

We had the PBO here last week. He identified that it would cost about $904 million for the government to help protect about 250,000 businesses by extending the CEBA loan for one year. He agreed with my calculations last week that an approximately 4.2% cut on outsourcing would cover the whole cost of the CEBA loan extension, so you could cut outsourcing by 4.2% and choose to help 250,000 businesses, a third of which have identified that they can't even borrow from the bank; they won't be able to pay the loan, and they'll lose the forgivable portion.

Why are you choosing these highly paid consultants over 250,000 businesses that need help?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I am afraid that is our time. Perhaps we can get back to it in the next round, or perhaps it can be provided in writing.

Mr. Brock, please go ahead. You have five minutes.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, you appeared before the Senate on October 18, 2023, at a question period and you were asked a number of questions by two senators on the ArriveCAN application. Four questions were put to you. You were evasive. You were not responsive. Let's hope your responses to committee today are a little more on point.

The question that was put to you, which you did not answer, was about the RCMP investigating the shady contracts surrounding the ArriveCAN app. The Trudeau government hid the fact from the Auditor General and from all Canadians, and in fact when it was revealed—

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

On a point of order, Mr. Chair, just to correct the record, the RCMP are not investigating the ArriveCAN scam.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Mr. Sousa, that's not a point of order. You can bring that up during your time. Thanks.

Go ahead, Mr. Brock.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

When it was brought to the attention of the committee that the Auditor General heard about the investigation not from the Liberal government itself but rather from a story in the Globe and Mail, everyone was shocked. Canadians were shocked and the Liberals, with the assistance of the NDP, shamefully shut down the committee after one full round of questions.

My question to you, sir, is who hired GC Strategies to work on ArriveCAN. Government officials at CBSA are pointing fingers at each other. They're blaming each other. They're not answering the questions. I know you're not responsible for CBSA, but you're certainly responsible for the funding that went to CBSA to pay the $11 million to a two-person company that works out of their basement, who did no IT work whatsoever, but instead simply did a Google search and found IT professionals and pocketed $11 million of taxpayer money. Who hired GC Strategies?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you.

For the sake of being clear and factual, let me again point to what my colleague MP Sousa said. The RCMP is not investigating ArriveCAN, so let's—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, this is my time.

Who hired GC Strategies?

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

I have a point of order.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, but we have a point of order. Wait one moment.

Go ahead.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Can we make sure that the witness has enough time—the same amount of time that it takes to ask the question—to answer?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

In this committee I've always recognized that the time is the member's time, and it's Mr. Brock's to use, just as, I'm sure, Mr. Sousa, you will be able to use your time for that.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, Canadians want a straight answer from this government. We're not getting it from senior bureaucrats. We're not getting it from any member of the CBSA.

Who was responsible for hiring GC Strategies and giving them $11 million of the $54-million price tag for ArriveCAN? Who was it?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

We are there to help. We are there to provide information, and if there is no time to provide information, that is fine. We'll perhaps be able to provide this in writing.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, will you undertake to give me that answer? CBSA will not give me that answer. Will you, as Minister of PSPC, give this committee that answer, yes or no?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Chair, I am not totally new in committee meetings. I believe, from previous experiences with previous chairs, that the minister has approximately the same amount of time to answer as the question took.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You've actually exceeded the time now.

My question is this: Yes or no, will you give us—

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

If you want me to listen to questions, that's fine. If you want me to answer questions, that might be a different matter.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm going to interrupt here, and I will repeat what I said earlier. I've been on this committee for eight years, and in this committee the practice has always been that it is the member's time. The gentleman has asked a question, and we always expect and request straight answers.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, I'll ask the question again: Will you undertake to give this committee information on who within the CBSA hired this two-person firm and gave this two-person consulting firm, which hired IT personnel and experts, for $11 million? Will you give us that answer, sir? Who hired GC Strategies?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

First, the RCMP is not investigating ArriveCAN. Second, the Minister of Public Services and Procurement is not responsible for funding the CBSA, unlike what you said earlier. So, that's the second fact that, I think, we all need to be clear about. Third, the CBSA did choose GC Strategies, and you are totally right to ask the question.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Minister, who at the CBSA was responsible for the decision to hire GC Strategies? Will you undertake—now that I ask this question for the fifth time—to give us that answer?