Government Operations Committee on Nov. 27th, 2023

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Good morning. I call this meeting to order. Thanks for joining us.

Yes, I see hands. I'll get to you.

Despite Air Canada's best efforts yesterday, I see that most of us are here.

Welcome to meeting number 88 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. Pursuant to Standing Order 106(4), the committee is meeting to consider the request for contracts between the federal government and electric vehicle battery manufacturing companies.

Before we start, I'll just remind you to not put earpieces next to the microphones as this causes feedback and potential injury.

I see Mr. Perkins, Mr. Berthold and Mr. Lewis starting the speaking list.

Go ahead, Mr. Perkins.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

We're here to discuss the Standing Order 106(4) motion with regard to the EV battery contracts, the four of them, with the Stellantis one being the one that's been most in the news. I'm not going to read the motion out. I presume it has been circulated.

Has it, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, it has.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you. I'll take it as read and maybe give a brief explanation as to the why.

There are four contracts that total almost $50 billion of taxpayer money over six years to subsidize three battery assembly plants for EVs and one small manufacturing company for a part of the EVs.

[Charles Sousa, Liberal, Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON]

Excuse me. I have a point of order.

I understand that this is Kelly Block's motion, and she is not here to present it. I understand that's not how it's done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You are incorrect. It is allowed.

I knew this was going to come up, so I looked it up. It's on page 1036 of House of Commons Procedure and Practice, third edition. It's allowed. I can read it to you if you wish, but it is allowed.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I will start again.

What we have here are four contracts that begin with a controversy, the controversy being the almost $50 billion to subsidize battery assembly plants for some of the world's largest auto manufacturing companies for the EV battery portion of their vehicles.

What has come to light over the last week or so started with meetings that were held in Windsor with officials from the South Korean government. It looks like up to 1,600 of that particular plant's employees will be taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers.

We have had a lot of media coverage since then, as well as questions in question period. If I go back to the original announcement, the Prime Minister said this will create thousands of good jobs in southwestern Ontario. Unfortunately, apparently, that's not the case. This will create many jobs for temporary foreign workers, and maybe not so temporary, foreign-funded replacement workers, or taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers. Minister Champagne said the same thing at the opening.

We have had all these reports that have come out from officials in Windsor as to what's going on. There's great concern, because instead of 2,500 jobs going to Canadians, 1,600 are apparently going to go to taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers.

We're looking at a situation here where we have four contracts that all mirror each other, we're told. In my case, I have had the privilege of reading the Volkswagen contracts. There are two of them. The Stellantis deal mirrors that. It wants the exact same rights that Volkswagen has. That, obviously, includes the ability to bring in foreign workers.

What's not in those contracts is a clause that guarantees that these will only be Canadian jobs. We know that not only because of the media reports but because the company itself has confirmed a couple of different numbers.

On Tuesday, the company said there would be 2,300 good, solid Canadian jobs, and it was bringing in 900 foreign workers for the set-up, which is a big set-up. There would be 600 permanent foreign workers, foreign taxpayer-funded workers, in that plant—not the 2,500 permanent Canadian jobs that were announced by the Liberals when they said we would have construction workers in addition to that. It looks like the majority of workers at that plant are going to be from outside Canada. Even the union itself is outraged by this lack of transparency.

We need the contracts released, because we're getting different stories. The minister initially said there were one or two jobs. Apparently, the government thinks now there may be more. The Minister of Industry has now decided that he wants to meet with the company to discuss the contract he signed to find out how many foreign workers are coming in. The Minister of Natural Resources tweeted last week that, of course, there are foreign workers coming in.

The government can't seem to get its act straight. The Minister of Industry said, “Oh, there might be a few.” The company says 1,600. These mirror Volkswagen, which mirrors Northvolt in Quebec as well. In fact, the Swedish company in Quebec has also said publicly on the weekend that it was bringing in taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers.

It appears that the government, at least from what was set up, didn't do its homework. The Minister of Industry now wants to renegotiate, apparently, the contract he signed. He should have probably read it in the first place, which he clearly didn't. If he did, he would know that these companies have the right to do that, including in the Volkswagen contract.

In the transparency that's required, when you're spending a record amount of subsidy for foreign multinational companies, the best way to ensure that is to release the contracts. That's why we have this motion before us to please release the documents.

What's not in the Volkswagen contract is the ability, or a clause, that allows the government to keep that contract quiet. It's not there. It's not the government's right.

I know we're going to hear lots from opposition members about commercial sensitivity and all of that, but the companies themselves have the ability to exempt the few clauses that may be commercially sensitive. However, most of what's in these contracts you can read—elements of the battery subsidy in the IRA and the commitments maybe on jobs, maybe not on jobs. However, there's clearly a confusion in the government and among the companies as to how many taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers are coming in, and how many jobs will actually go to good, unionized jobs. We have an unemployment rate in Windsor of 7%.

The governments have invested and are ready for the training. We did this in Halifax with the shipbuilding contract. On the $30-billion shipbuilding contract—the community college, the industry, everyone—all that training was done in Canada for Canadian workers. That's what everyone expected with these contracts, so it's shocking that the Liberal government seems to be hiding their incompetence in these contracts.

This is the reason we put it forward. Canadians deserve to know how their money is being spent and whether it's being spent for jobs for replacement workers from outside Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Perkins.

I see as well Mr. Johns and Mr. Kusmierczyk have their hands up. I've added you both to the speaking order.

Mr. Berthold, go ahead please. Welcome to OGGO.

[Luc Berthold, Conservative, Mégantic—L'Érable, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

The subsidies granted for these electric battery plant projects total $50 billion in public funds, or $3,000 in taxes provided by every Canadian family. That's a lot of money. Imagine what every Canadian family can do with $3,000. The government chose to send this money to three companies to create what were originally called Canadian jobs.

Unfortunately, in recent weeks, we've learned that this money won't just be used to create Canadian jobs in the plants that were announced with great fanfare by the government. Two weeks ago, we learned that in Windsor, foreign replacement workers would be paid with this money provided by Canadian and Quebec families.

The Liberals first said, when we reported this, that it was disinformation and not true. Then they changed their story, saying that there would probably be only one foreign worker there to come and give advice. Now we have confirmation, from the company itself, that at least 900 taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers will be hired to work in the Windsor plant.

From there, we also have to ask questions about what will happen in the case of the Northvolt plant to be built in Quebec. In fact, two Northvolt plants will be built in Quebec.

Following questions that have been asked, and in light of what we've learned in the media, we now know that Northvolt, in Quebec, will bring in hundreds of foreign replacement workers, who will be funded by taxpayers to fill jobs that should go to Quebecers. Northvolt will receive more than $7 billion in public funds to carry out this project.

So we know that foreign replacement workers will be at the Stellantis plant and the Northvolt plant, and there's every reason to believe, if the trend continues, that the Volkswagen contract will also call for hundreds of foreign workers, paid for by Canadian taxpayers.

We will therefore support the motion, with good reason, to obtain a copy of these contracts.

Why do we have the right to see these contracts, you may ask? It's because they're on an unprecedented scale. They represent $50 billion, or $3,000 in taxes per family. This hard-earned money that families have given to the government is going to be given to these companies. We had hoped that this would create Canadian jobs, but we're learning that this will not be the case. For all these reasons, it's important that these contracts be made public. We need to know if the government took steps to ensure that this money was going to be used to create Canadian unionized and skilled jobs that are paid for by Canadians. This is absolutely essential.

Of course, Mr. Chair, you're going to hear from the Liberals today that this is a contract and we can't release all the information, because that would interfere with future negotiations with other companies to attract foreign investment to Canada. However, this is Canadians' money. We're talking about $50 billion, or $3,000 per family. Canadians have a right to know what kind of contracts this government is signing with private companies, and they have a right to know what is being done with their money.

So it's important that we have all the contracts quickly, in their entirety, because Canadians have a right to see them. We have a right to know how sensitive this government has been to protecting jobs for Canadian and Quebec workers.

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you, Mr. Berthold.

Go ahead, Mr. Lewis.

[Chris Lewis, Conservative, Essex, ON]

Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the committee for allowing me to come to committee this morning.

It's obviously incredibly near and dear to my heart and incredibly concerning, Mr. Chair, because this is my own backyard. I represent an excellent riding called Essex, and that butts right up to Windsor, where the Stellantis plant is going to be.

There is one good thing about Air Canada being late, and it's that we get more time to spend on our phones with folks—at least I do. Last night I spoke to the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers. I also spoke with the carpenters union. They said nothing less than that these are jobs that are going to be stolen from the very fingertips of Canadians.

Now we have potentially $50 billion on the laps of each and every one of us around this table that is basically unaccounted for. We need to understand. We need to know exactly what the numbers are.

This is only about good-paying, skilled trades jobs, both unionized and non-unionized jobs. That's what it's about.

I was told last night that there are a few folks that need to come in for the programming of the computers, but the rest of this work has already been duplicated time and time again in other portions of the automotive industry, an industry that's been absolutely decimated due to COVID, an industry that drives southwestern Ontario—not only Windsor but certainly Windsor—an industry that works very closely with our counterparts in Michigan and downriver Michigan.

To suggest for a moment that we don't open the books on this and really find out how many folks are coming here to take away good-paying Canadian jobs.... That's the question. Anything shy of that answer is not doing justice to our skilled trades jobs.

When I reflect back on it, it's not only the battery plant itself. It's the tier twos and the tier threes that are going to be affected—the same ones that have already been affected and couldn't get folks across the border on the shop floors. They had to put all the investment into this new material, this new technology, to play the game. They deserve it. They deserve the answers. The workers deserve the answers. The unions deserve the answers, and the folks of Windsor-Essex deserve the answers.

I think it would be the world's biggest mistake if we did not look at the $50-billion investment into this.

I'll take it one last step, Mr. Chair. It's as simple as this: It's each and every family, every Canadian family, that is trying to feed the mouths of their children. If it's $1,000 a family, or it's $3,000 a family, whatever the number is, they deserve to know as well.

I would strongly ask that this committee take a really hard look at this and take a hard look in the mirror, because you're affecting a whole bunch of people's lives and a whole bunch of businesses.

Thanks, Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Lewis.

We'll go to Mr. Scheer, and then we'll go to Mr. Johns.

[Andrew Scheer, Conservative, Regina—Qu'Appelle, SK]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This is a very important motion because Canadians deserve answers as to where their tax dollars are going. The Prime Minister decided to give $15 billion to a large multinational company to set up shop here in Canada. In essence, he made every single Canadian a shareholder in this project, in the case of Stellantis, to the tune of $1,000 per household. If you lump them all in together, that number goes up to about $3,000 per household.

We're going to hear arguments, I suspect, and we've seen them in the media over the last few days, from Liberals saying, “We can't divulge the details of the contract because of commercial sensitivities.” Well, shareholders can absolutely demand to see documents when their company does something. When CEOs make decisions, they are held accountable by their shareholders. In this case we, as members of Parliament, are the representatives of the shareholders of this country.

Having foreign replacement workers coming to Canada, thanks to taxpayer subsidies, is of interest not just to the workers in the area but also to every single Canadian family whose tax bill is underwriting this. Let's talk about workers in the area. We've heard from union representatives that there are qualified Canadians who can do this work. The Windsor area, in the case of Stellantis, is home to hundreds if not thousands of qualified Canadian workers who have worked in the auto sector, in some cases for their entire lives and in some cases for multiple generations.

The idea that there is no one in Canada who can fill these jobs is an insult to those hard-working men and women who have built those communities and worked in that industry for decades in some cases.

That is what this motion is all about. If this is such a good deal for Canadian taxpayers and such a good deal for Canadian workers, the government should want to make the details of the contract public. If they have a different story to tell as to the number of foreign workers who will be paid for out of this contract, let them come to committee. Let them explain it.

All we're asking for here is that famous prescription about sunlight being the best disinfectant. We want to bring the details of this contract out of the darkness and into the light. That is something this government has touted, as my colleague Mr. Perkins outlined.

Even though it seems as though the minister doesn't know what's in the contract, that didn't stop him from going around for weeks and months talking about its benefits. If that's the case, now that these reports are out there, it's incumbent upon us to scrutinize those and to determine whether or not this is as good a deal as the government pretended it would be.

Billions of dollars are going to multinational corporations to build a single plant in Canada. To then have those taxpayer dollars used to underwrite foreign replacement workers is very concerning. If this is the way the government is going to conduct itself in terms of an industrial strategy or a job creation strategy, then, absolutely, Canadians have a right to know.

I'm looking at the numbers for the Stellantis deal itself, and the reports indicate that up to 1,600 of these jobs will be filled by taxpayer-funded foreign replacement workers. That's out of 2,500 direct jobs from the plant. That's 1,600 out of 2,500. That's not a very good ratio if you're talking about the percentage of tax dollars going to create jobs for Canadians versus to create jobs for foreign replacement workers. That's a terrible ratio.

We need to get to the bottom of that for those reasons. It's our job to hold the government to account when it spends tax dollars. It's our job to scrutinize the details on behalf of the shareholders of this country, every single Canadian taxpayer, every single Canadian citizen. I do hope the Liberals will agree to this motion because all it concerns is getting the documents in front of this committee so we can do the job that Canadians sent us here to do, which is to defend their interests, defend their tax dollars and make sure they're getting the very best possible deal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. Scheer.

We're going to go to Mr. Johns and then Mr. Kusmierczyk.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I wish I were there in person, but my flight got cancelled last night due to fog from Vancouver Island. Thankfully, Dana Hawkes, the chief shop steward from B.C. Ferries, loaned me his tie so I could be here.

In all seriousness, we want transparency and we want to avoid future problems, which is why we're supporting this motion today.

I want to raise a few points as well. The government investment in the auto industry is a long-standing strategy in Canada, the U.S. and around the world. It has benefited the Canadian economy and has built the middle class in this country over many decades. The workers and the unions are the ones responsible for sustaining the industry and creating opportunities through decades of negotiations to get the industry to transform for the next technological change to electric vehicles. It's really a once-in-a-lifetime, multi-generational situation.

This government has had to meet the challenges the U.S. government created through the Inflation Reduction Act auto provisions. While doing so, they have fallen short on the disclosure and transparency that exists in the U.S. government's plan, which is why we're supporting this motion.

A national auto strategy—something the NDP has called for, for two decades—would have provided the transparency and accountability this government has decided to ignore. Over the past two weeks, from a revelation from the South Korean ambassador that 1,600 foreign workers from South Korea were coming to help build and operate a plant, there have been many questions that the government has refused to answer. Last Monday, the government said it was one job. Then on Tuesday, it was 100 jobs, and then on Thursday, it was 900 jobs, etc.

The confusion has damaged public trust and sowed division among the various unions and communities. This is a failure of leadership and it needs to be corrected. It's what we're working on today, hopefully. These investments in our auto sector are very important. They'll be transformative for the industry and create many new jobs for Canadians. Accordingly, this must have public support.

To do that, the public needs all the information on these investments and facilities across this country. This is an opportunity for the government to rebuild that public trust by demonstrating how these investments will create jobs for Canadians and new training opportunities, and employ our brightest engineers and scientists and world-leading skilled auto workers along with our highly skilled building trades professionals.

Full disclosure also means outlining how many foreign workers from countries such as South Korea, Sweden, Germany and other countries will be coming here, what jobs, paths and training they will be carrying out, and for how long. This will ensure the public has the full knowledge and understanding of the facts. Once the public has all the facts, they will support these investments and public trust will be rebuilt. That's the hope. That's what we want, ultimately.

I know that Canada’s Building Trades Unions is still concerned. During all the public announcements, ribbon cutting and victory laps, neither the federal Liberals or the provincial Conservatives identified that hundreds or thousands of workers would be coming. We just want to make sure that all references to building a battery plant, training and becoming experts are going to be done here.

There are a few important things. This gives us an opportunity to understand. It can be demonstrated that if we are short some skills—which we don't believe—starting with this first project, let's learn to train our workers, who are already used to travelling to different provinces to do that work. Every community right now is struggling with housing at the moment. Why are we not using this as an opportunity to plan and create permanent housing as well?

The real fight here is for the initial bill. Let's get it going.

We, the New Democrats, have confidence the public supports clean energy jobs, transitioning the economy and being competitive. Our difference is accountability through an auto policy, so people appreciate and support the value of our partnerships. These investments need to be for workers and their families, not CEOs or shareholders as the primary beneficiaries.

One concern I have that I wanted to highlight in the motion is that it's drawing the report to come back to the House. I don't believe that's necessary at this point. I think we could order the documents from our committee. We can do that without going to the House. Normally, it would just be reported to the House and then turned into an order from the House if a committee request is ignored or broken. I would like to amend anything that refers it to the House and move that direction to report it back to OGGO.

I would like to move that amendment to the motion, and hopefully I can gain support for that from my colleagues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That is just to strip that one line about reporting it to the House, Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

That's it. It's just reporting it back to the committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Okay.

We have Mr. Genuis on the amendment.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Chair.

Conservatives are here pushing for transparency with regard to the expenditure of taxpayers' dollars. We certainly do not support the idea that an important safeguard like reporting this matter to the House should be stripped from the motion. This is the mechanism for ensuring that the government follows through.

We've had many instances where committees have ordered the production of documents, and the government has flagrantly ignored the right of committees to order that. Committees have an important job to do, but we've seen consistently that this government does not respect the work that committees have to do through ordering documents.

We want transparency. We believe that taxpayers have a right to see all of the details of this contract. The motion we have drafted provides the safeguards to ensure that this will actually happen. The amendment proposed by the NDP would, I think, substantively allow the government to do what they have done in many other cases, and that is to simply ignore the order to produce documents to the committee.

The question before this committee is this: Are we committed to ordering these documents, and are we serious about ensuring that we actually get them? If we're serious about ensuring we actually get them, as Conservatives are, then it is important we have this mechanism of reporting it to the House as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Ms. Vignola and Mr. Kusmierczyk, do you mind putting your hands down, because we're debating the amendment. I do have you on the speaking list. If you wish to chime in on Mr. Johns' amendment, leave your hands up.

We'll go back to Mr. Johns.

[Gord Johns, NDP, Courtenay—Alberni, BC]

I agree with Mr. Genuis. We want the answers.

Here is where I would like to go. We order the documents to be submitted to the committee, and if they don't, then we can go and talk about going to the nuclear option, to the House. However, I don't believe that's necessary right now. I think we need to take a look at them at our committee and decide whether that's something we want to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Before I go to Mr. Scheer, we have Mr. Kusmierczyk and Ms. Vignola.

Mr. Kusmierczyk, you still have your hand up. Is that to speak on Mr. Johns'...?

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

Yes, it's for the amendment, and then I'd also like to speak to the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Yes, I have you on the list.

We have Mr. Kusmierczyk and then Mr. Scheer for the amendment.

[Irek Kusmierczyk, Liberal, Windsor—Tecumseh, ON]

I just want to say that we do approve of the NDP amendment. We will be supporting the amendment.