Evidence of meeting #98 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
2:10 p.m.
As an Individual
As I said in my opening remarks, it was an incredibly tense moment in history, certainly in the history of the Canada Border Services Agency. No one, I believe, before me had ever shut down the border before and still tried to make sure that commercial trade, and essential food and medicine were coming across.
I was spending a lot of time with my American colleagues to make sure that the messaging was the same. They have a different legal construct in terms of how airports work, but the land border was the primary concern, given that's where most of the commercial trade comes through to Canada and back.
2:10 p.m.
Liberal
Charles Sousa Liberal Mississauga—Lakeshore, ON
Yes, I know, and so it was a massive urgency at a massive border—the largest, I guess, in the world—and you had an issue of public safety at the forefront. Some are suggesting maybe there were too many...or there were some shortcomings in the way things were processed. Can you explain? Were there any shortcomings, in your view, in how it was managed?
2:10 p.m.
As an Individual
Do you mean in how the application development was processed?
2:10 p.m.
As an Individual
As I said in my opening remarks, we got the request, and four days later my team had put together mock-ups of what the application could look like. We already had some basic capabilities on this in the organization, but to do something quickly and get things approved through an app store, both android and Apple, was going to require extra help. The team had something ready to go for a soft launch—I believe it was in the middle of April or just towards the end of April—and then it was fully launched.
It was a very tight time frame, absolutely not normal in terms of the normal way we would procure any IT project or anything like this. Were we running at 150 miles per hour? Absolutely, but this was a pandemic: People were dying. I remember that, at the time when we shut the border, 100,000 people had died—
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kelly McCauley
I'm sorry, but you are past the time. I'll have to cut you off there, Mr. Ossowski.
Thanks, Mr. Sousa.
Mr. Genuis, we go over to you, please.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Ms. O'Gorman, two senior public servants involved in the ArriveCAN affair, Mr. MacDonald and Mr. Utano, provided highly detailed and critical testimony to this committee on November 7, 2023, about what happened with ArriveCAN. They didn't toe the line. They were very critical of you directly as well as Mr. Doan, and indirectly, I think, of Minister Mendicino. My impression is that they did not intend to be critical in particular. However, they simply provided direct and forthright answers to direct questions, and we welcome that from others as well.
In any event, immediately after their testimony it seems that you ordered an investigation related to their conduct. Is that correct?
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
You didn't order any investigation after their testimony.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Their dismissal letters say that on November 27, 2023, they were made aware of an investigation by the Canada Border Services Agency. Were they made aware of an investigation on November 27, 2023?
2:15 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
In the course of conducting an investigation, at some point, individuals, if there are allegations against them, are formally informed of those allegations. I think what you're referring to—
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
They were informed that they were the subject of an investigation regarding serious allegations of misconduct, allegedly. They were informed of that on November 27—suspiciously just a few weeks after their testimony before this committee. Are you claiming that information was related to an investigation that was actually launched prior to their testimony?
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
When was that investigation launched?
2:15 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
There was one investigation launched in November 2022.
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Okay, but then they were informed of what, the expansion of that investigation, a part of that investigation, or were they simply informed on November 27, 2023, that they were the subject of particular complaints?
2:15 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
My understanding is they were informed of the allegations against them, so there was the information—
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Were these new allegations or allegations that had been long-standing?
2:15 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Botler AI presented allegations to the agency. The investigation that has been followed is consistent with any investigation undertaken by the CBSA and—
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Madam, I like direct responses here. What I'm trying to understand is that, a couple of weeks after their appearance before this committee, they were informed of a serious investigation into their own conduct. You're telling us that it just so happened that there were new revelations related to an ongoing investigation.
2:15 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I wouldn't say there were new revelations. The investigation—
2:15 p.m.
Conservative
Garnett Genuis Conservative Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB
Then why were they told of this only on November 27? Was information simply kept from them for a long time? You have to agree that the timing is a little bit odd, isn't it?