No.
Evidence of meeting #98 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #98 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was investigation.
A video is available from Parliament.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Ms. O'Gorman, I find your responses to the questions put to you by my colleague Ms. Kusie—as to why both Mr. MacDonald, who was director general of the CBSA, and Mr. Antonio Utano, who was the vice-president of the CBSA, were suspended without pay—to be lacking in clarity. Clearly you know a lot more, and we're going to ask questions about that because Canadians deserve a full, frank answer as to why these senior civil servants have been treated in this fashion.
These are extremely unusual circumstances. Bill Curry from The Globe and Mail was able to speak with the former clerk of the Privy Council Office, Mr. Michael Wernick, who said that “public finger-pointing by senior public servants is highly unusual” and that he could “not recall any other instance of such public disagreement.” Is it “an outlier”? Yes, and “suspensions without pay are also rare”.
“It is a very strong measure to suspend without pay while a process is under way and no conclusions have been reached. Usually, disciplinary measures follow an investigation being completed and suspension with pay is more common in the early stages,” he said.
“It is also a very strong measure to suspend or permanently revoke a security clearance. It is tantamount to removing someone from that job and any other job that requires that level of clearance. It is not a common occurrence.”
Your decisions at the CBSA, as directed and delivered to the other ministries these two individuals have worked for, have destroyed their lives, and Canadians deserve an answer. Parliamentarians deserve an answer as to why due process was not provided to them and why very draconian measures were taken against them, so I'm asking a number of questions. Whom did you speak with on suspending the two public servants on the $54-million ArriveCAN app?
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You said it wasn't your decision, but you clearly participated in the ultimate recommendation that they be removed. Whom did you speak with?
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
That's not accurate at all. I didn't speak to either of their deputy heads about the actions they were taking.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You received a preliminary report from investigators in your department. Did those investigators recommend suspensions?
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
The decisions were taken by the deputy heads. I shared the preliminary statements of fact with their deputy heads—
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
What did the preliminary statements of fact...? How were they so damning against those two individuals that you felt it prudent to pass that on to the other ministries?
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
They included, as in the emails you have received, information about engagements with consultants and a whole series of information that, as their deputy heads, I felt they had a right to have. They did not consult me on their actions.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Why did you claim that they were a national security risk?
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Are you aware that was the language used in their suspension letters?
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I haven't seen their suspension letters.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
You were completely blind to that. You had no knowledge of that.
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I'm not their deputy head. They don't work for me.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
The deputy heads never spoke to you at all. Is your evidence today that they alone made that decision?
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
Okay, so identify those deputy heads for us, please. Who are they?
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
Bob Hamilton is the commissioner of the CRA and Stephen Lucas is the deputy head of Health Canada.
1:40 p.m.
Conservative
Larry Brock Conservative Brantford—Brant, ON
How many communications did you have with both of those individuals?
1:40 p.m.
President, Canada Border Services Agency
I let them know that I would be sharing a....
Pardon?
