Government Operations Committee on Nov. 4th, 2025

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call the meeting to order.

Good morning, colleagues. Welcome to meeting number 13 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates.

We are doing just one hour today because of the budget. We're going to get right to it.

We have four opening statements.

Before we start, to those of you who are online, I'll introduce you after the people here in person give their opening statements.

Colleagues, because there are four witnesses, half here and half by video conference, when you're asking a question, please state directly who the question is for so that we don't have our in-house witnesses talking over our virtual witnesses or vice versa.

We'll start with Mr. St-Amour, please, for five minutes. We're short on time, so please keep to the time allotted and save me from cutting you off.

Go ahead, sir.

[Normand St-Amour, Mayor of the Municipality Chute-Saint-Philippe, As an Individual]

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and vice-chairs.

I'd like to thank the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates for inviting me to participate in this meeting.

I have been the mayor of the municipality of Chute-Saint-Philippe for 16 years, and this year I am beginning my fifth term. I'm also the executive director of the Municipality of Lac-du-Cerf. Both municipalities are located in the RCM of Antoine-Labelle, in the Upper Laurentians.

The municipality of Chute-Saint-Philippe has 1,100 residents and covers an area of 322 km². It is important to understand that, in its most densely populated area, there is one residence every 200 feet. Because there is no sewer or water system, the community is sparsely populated, and travel times are long. It takes 20 to 60 minutes just to get to Mont-Laurier, the largest town in the region. During the postal strike in September, we got a glimpse of what postal service in rural areas would be like following the announcement by Minister Lightbound.

For the delivery of voter cards for municipal elections, we had to deal with GLS, a mail delivery subcontractor. Our municipality, which has a population of 1,100 people, had to pay $30 per voter, which is a huge amount for a municipality of this size. That price is high because we're not in Montreal or Laval. There's no competition here, and companies know that they can charge whatever they want.

Municipalities already shoulder a lot of responsibility. If, on top of that, they lose access to Canada Post's public service, it will be the public who will pay the price, and much more dearly.

I would also like to draw the attention of parliamentarians to the issue of decision alignment, the alignment of your decisions. Municipalities are local governments. They have legal obligations under provincial and federal regulations. Notices of non-compliance regarding urban planning, the environment and animals, as well as official letters, must be sent by mail in accordance with the law. Emails are not valid.

If there is no longer a postal service, representatives of municipalities like mine have to travel 27 km back and forth between the city hall and the post office in Mont-Laurier. Who is going to pay for that travel? It will be the taxpayers of the municipality of Chute-Saint-Philippe.

On the one hand, we're told that the postal service is running at a loss and that we need to go digital, but on the other hand, the government requires us to operate like it's 1960, when mayors, senior management and city councils were dependent on your decisions.

Another important alignment is with the objectives of the Quebec government, which currently has nearly 1,000 municipal governments, such as Chute-Saint-Philippe. In addition, Chute-Saint-Philippe is an age-friendly municipality. Of the 1,200 municipalities in Quebec, about 1,000 are age-friendly municipalities. Our goal is to enable our seniors to remain in their homes for as long as possible and to offer them a good quality of life in their communities. This requires the implementation of public policies, facilities and services tailored to citizens.

Now the federal government has just eliminated the only service it offers directly to the public. We are asking you to be consistent for our seniors. This is also a matter of regional vitality, economic and civic attractiveness, and the survival of the heart of our villages. On that note, I would like to point out that it would be appropriate to maintain postal outlets in our stores. Our convenience stores, pharmacies and other businesses could be places where these services are offered, which would provide merchants with additional revenue and direct assistance in the region.

Mr. Chair, Chute-Saint-Philippe is 202 km from Gatineau and 235 km from Montreal. For parliamentarians who are not familiar with Quebec, that is almost the distance between Edmonton and Calgary.

We need to have an efficient parcel delivery service. If this service is transferred to private service providers, once again a private monopoly will be imposed, and delivery costs will skyrocket.

The federal government plays a minor role in regional development, and it remains completely absent when it comes to land use planning.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I'm sorry, Mr. St-Amour. We're well past our time. I have to cut you off there in order to hear from the other witnesses.

If you have anything else, you're welcome to submit both your brief and anything else in writing to the committee. That will be distributed and treated with equal weight as your verbal testimony.

Mr. Aubie, we'll go to you, please, for five minutes.

[Michael Aubie, Manager, Advocacy, Policy and Public Affairs, Federation of Canadian Municipalities]

Thank you so much.

Hello. Bonjour. Thank you for the invitation to speak today on this important matter.

My name is Michael Aubie. I'm the manager of advocacy for the Federation of Canadian Municipalities.

The Federation of Canadian Municipalities, or FCM, is the national voice of municipal governments.

Our members include more than 2,000 municipalities of all sizes, from Canada's cities and rural towns to northern communities, and 18 provincial and territorial municipal associations.

I'm going to make two key points in my opening statement.

The first is that no changes should be made to Canada Post’s mandate or service charter without thorough public review, including meaningful engagement with local governments. Canada Post’s financial challenges present an opportunity to innovate, explore new sources of revenue and support housing and economic growth in rural communities.

FCM is most concerned about the future of Canada Post from the perspective of rural communities. Rural Canada is home to 6.3 million Canadians, or 15% of Canada’s population, and contributes to nearly a third of Canada’s GDP. Simply put, Canada can succeed only if rural Canada is thriving.

Currently, Canadians rely on over 3,000 rural postal offices. Rural postal services enable residents and businesses to receive government benefit payments, banking and insurance and to send and receive products from local businesses across Canada and around the world.

In addition, Canada Post offers services tailored to more vulnerable individuals, such as seniors.

Post offices and rural postal services are a lifeline for rural and remote communities. Municipal governments, like provincial and territorial governments and, in fact, the federal government, continue to rely on postal services to provide essential public services to Canadians. Tax collection and communication with property owners continue to be carried out by mail, and changes to postal services can impact municipal operations, as Mayor St-Amour mentioned. We have seen this with the disruption of recent municipal elections in Alberta, Quebec and Newfoundland and Labrador.

FCM recognizes that Canada Post is facing significant financial pressures, and municipalities understand that Canada Post needs to modernize. FCM encourages the federal government to look for opportunities to modernize the corporation, diversify its revenue streams and, most importantly, leverage its national footprint to support housing and economic development in rural and remote communities. By reimagining Canada Post’s role, we can help to ensure its long-term sustainability while delivering real benefits to Canadians, especially those in regions that are too often underserved.

FCM encourages the federal government to look for ways that Canada Post can strengthen its role as a connector through a community hub model. A community hub model could support business and government services at post office locations, especially in rural, northern and underserved communities. Canada Post offices are often the only federal footprint in small and rural communities. They can be leveraged to increase the reach of federal programs and services, as well as other public and private services.

FCM also sees an opportunity for both Canada Post and communities with a shortage of affordable housing. Public lands should be leveraged to help provide affordable housing. Canada Post has over 5,700 post offices across Canada, of which many are one-storey sites, underutilized and located on main streets in rural Canada. Some of these locations offer an opportunity to meet additional housing needs in rural communities, including for affordable housing. As Canada Post works to improve its balance sheet, co-locating prefabricated affordable housing on suitable Canada Post sites could generate revenue for Canada Post, support the modular housing sector and help the federal government address its affordable housing objectives.

Budget 2024 announced the government’s intention to launch a new Canada Post housing program to support affordable housing providers to build on Canada Post properties. More recently, with the announcement of Build Canada Homes, the opportunity exists to address the urgent need for supportive, deeply affordable and non-profit housing. FCM fully supports these goals and encourages the federal government to pursue housing development as part of broader efforts to modernize Canada Post.

With that, I’ll close my opening statements. Thank you so much. Merci beaucoup.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much, sir.

We will now go to our virtual witnesses.

We'll start with Ms. Piché, for five minutes, please.

The floor is yours.

[Mariève Piché, Chief Executive Officer, Centre d'action bénévole Léonie-Bélanger Inc.]

First of all, I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates for inviting me to testify today.

The Centre d'action bénévole Léonie-Bélanger is a non-profit organization. It offers a variety of services that support the continued independence and social engagement of people aged 60 and over. These services are coordinated by a salaried team, but are mostly offered by volunteers who work within the organization. Currently, 12 employees and more than 150 volunteers work together to provide services to more than 1,500 people aged 60 and over with the goal of maintaining their independence. The services we provide include meals on wheels, accompaniment and transportation to medical appointments, home visits and much more.

Our organization is a member of the Fédération des centres d'action bénévole du Québec. It is located in Mont-Laurier, in the Antoine-Labelle RCM, a remote rural region that covers nearly 15,000 square kilometres. Our territory is characterized by low population density, vast distances between municipalities and limited access to public services. With a population of nearly 38,000, more than a quarter of whom are aged 65 and over, our territory is marked by remoteness, aging and vulnerability. For these citizens, the post office isn't a luxury, but an essential service.

As the executive director of the Centre d'action bénévole Léonie-Bélanger for five years now, I've seen the negative effects of the recent Canada Post strikes on our organization, our users and our volunteers. These strikes foreshadow potential service disruptions related to the reform of Canada Post for rural communities, and I anticipate the negative impact this will have on our seniors.

Shutting down postal service during the strike periods resulted in financial losses for our organization and increased complexity in managing communications. It's important to understand that only 10% of our users use digital tools such as email and online bill payment. As a result, we have to send bills for more than 300 customers by mail every month. About half of them return their payment by cheque in the mail. A delay in receiving their bill results in a delay in their payment, which has an impact on our organization's cash flow.

For the vast majority of our senior users, who have always been accustomed to receiving their mail at home, a service interruption disrupts their routines, increases their feelings of isolation and causes them a great deal of anxiety about not being able to pay their bills on time.

There are also communication issues for our volunteers, whose average age hovers around 70. A larger proportion, about 75%, use digital tools. However, we have to look at the 25% who need to be reached in other ways.

Our volunteers are used to receiving our communications by mail. I'm thinking in particular of invitations to events, the seasonal newspaper, the convening of our annual general meeting.

For the past year, we've been trying to make a shift to digital, but it has been more difficult than it seems. We have had some setbacks and experienced situations where some of our valued volunteers felt, despite our best intentions, forgotten and undervalued. For an organization like ours, whose services depend entirely on volunteers, this is a significant problem.

In closing, I would like to emphasize that we cannot currently base significant changes to postal services on a digital shift for everyone. Today, I'm speaking on behalf of seniors living in rural areas, those who don't have access to digital tools, and those who would like to use them but are deterred by all the stories of online fraud.

Every week, our volunteers assist people who feel completely helpless when they have to complete online procedures required by organizations. Many of our seniors still feel neglected and overwhelmed by a system that is evolving without them and is very difficult for them to access.

It's not just the digital issue. There's also the issue of mobility. In a large region like ours, receiving mail at home is an essential service. Many of our users are unable to travel on their own, either because they don't own a vehicle or because they no longer drive. I won't even mention public transit, which is practically non-existent in our area.

Areas like ours are no exception in our vast country, with over 4,000 rural regions.

I am therefore asking you today to remember that, for millions of seniors in Canada, the mail is far from an outdated service. Rather, it is an essential service.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Monger, we'll turn the floor over to you for five minutes.

[Karine Monger, Chief Executive Officer, MRC du Golfe-du-Saint-Laurent]

Good morning, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much for inviting me to appear before you today.

My name is Karine Monger. I am the chief executive officer of the Gulf of St. Lawrence regional county municipality, or RCM.

I'll start by explaining where we are located. We're 1,500 kilometres east of Ottawa, in the easternmost part of the province of Quebec. The vast majority of the RCM's area isn't connected to a road. We're located right on the Labrador border, in the easternmost part of our region. There is a road link that is accessible either from Labrador or the Maritimes.

Today, I want to talk to you about Canada Post services and the need for those services in my region. We've heard from others before. However, what I want to tell you is that Canada Post continues to be the only way to receive envelopes or parcels in our small RCM. All deliveries in our region are done strictly by Canada Post.

Our region has a small population of about 5,700 people. They live along the coastline in small villages that, as I said earlier, are not connected to each other. The mail is delivered to us mainly by air. We are also subject to the weather, which means that these deliveries obviously depend on good weather.

As I said earlier, we have post offices in each of our small communities. Canada Post is the only service we have in our region. All the other services you might think of—private companies, for example—don't exist in our region. Again, we are strictly serviced by Canada Post.

How does that work? For example, if I order something from Ottawa, it's shipped to Sept-Îles. Then, through a private carrier, it's transferred with Canada Post services, and then the mail is transported to our region.

You can imagine that during a strike, as was the case in the fall of last year and, more recently, this fall, everything grinds to a halt. No other services come to our region. Everything is paralyzed, which means not only sending envelopes and parcels, but also basic services. Think of medications that are normally shipped by mail, eyeglasses or any other item like that. That's significant.

We really need the services of Canada Post. We have to make sure that other measures are put in place for our population during a strike, so that we can address this problem and provide a basic service to our population. As I said earlier, our region is completely paralyzed without Canada Post services.

People have mentioned that they have to travel kilometres to get to the nearest town. In our case, it isn't possible. If someone has to travel to buy school supplies, for example, during a strike—a situation we experienced—there is no way for us to get in our car and get around. You literally have to take a plane to go to a store that, it must be said, isn't close to our region.

We believe that Canada Post's services are necessary. They are unique, and it is important to take all that into consideration for our RCM and to ensure that we maintain a minimum of services.

As I said earlier, we have post offices in each of our communities. Our mail is delivered by air. We therefore ask you to consider the fact that we are isolated and that, when a strike is called, everything in our region comes to a standstill.

It's extremely important that you remember all of this as you go forward. It's also important that you take this into consideration in the upcoming review.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks very much.

We'll start with our six-minute rounds with Mrs. Block.

Please go ahead.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thanks very much, Chair.

I will be splitting my time with Ms. Marie-Hélène Gaudreau and I will try to keep my intervention short.

During the moratorium, which has now been lifted, there were more than 600 closures of postal offices, many in rural and remote communities, often due to an inability to recruit a retired postmaster or the loss of retail space and the inability to replace it. For a senior in my riding, a closure of a rural post office could mean the difference between having to walk down to main street to get their mail as opposed to driving 20 or 50 kilometres down the road to another community.

Mr. Aubie, my question is for you.

As an advocate for all urban municipalities, regardless of their size, are you aware of any criteria or parameters that have been put in place to guide the closures of post offices designated as rural, despite the minister's verbal assurances that it will apply only to certain post offices?

[Michael Aubie]

At this time, we're looking for more information. As I initially indicated, fundamentally, the Federation of Canadian Municipalities believes that all municipalities need to be consulted as part of this process. The definition of “rural”, I know, certainly can be a challenging one, not just for Canada Post, but for the FCM, and I'm sure for this committee as well.

That said, though, certainly we believe it's critical when it comes to these rural locations that there is adequate service. As I mentioned, and as many of the witnesses so far have indicated as well, Canada Post is fundamentally a lifeline for many of these rural communities.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Then you would say that it's still not clear as to what the criteria will be for the closure of these rural post offices, given that they're lifting the moratorium—just a simple yes or no.

[Michael Aubie]

I'm not clear what the criteria would be at this time...only to reinforce that certainly municipalities would want to be a part of those conversations.

[Kelly Block, Conservative, Carlton Trail—Eagle Creek, SK]

Thank you very much.

I'll pass this over to my colleague.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Madam Gaudreau, please go ahead.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank my colleague for giving me this time.

Mr. St‑Amour, first of all, congratulations on your re-election. You've been the mayor of your municipality for over 16 years now. Bravo.

I didn't know that municipalities had to pay $30 per voter. I'm at a loss for words.

You said that your municipality has 1,100 citizens. Who is going to pay that $30,000?

[Normand St-Amour]

The residents of the municipality. We will have to build those costs into the current budget at the local level, and they will be reflected in the taxes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Have you been offered a solution so that it doesn't affect your budget?

Everyone knew that municipal elections were scheduled for September 25. It was to be expected that the union would say that it wouldn't go any further.

[Normand St-Amour]

We haven't received any compensation. However, we were reminded that we had an obligation to deliver the voter information cards.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

What do you expect in terms of alignment when a new formula, a reform, is adopted?

There is one analysis after another, and then the possibility of a moratorium is raised all of a sudden.

What do you expect from the consultations organized by the department?

[Normand St-Amour]

I expect departments and the federal government to consult municipalities on what's going on in their communities. In Quebec, land-use planning, the environment and all the related by-laws, pollution, new construction and building renovations, are all managed by the municipality.

We are still required by law to send notices related to these issues to our citizens by mail. At the very least, the laws should be amended to allow us to communicate electronically with our citizens or to use another method. Right now, for every letter we are required by law to send out, it costs us about $30 when we have to use a service provider that is not Canada Post. Things that come to mind are non-compliance notices for environmental release, construction in a side yard or renovation work beyond the approved time frame.

In a lot of cases, municipalities must use the mail to communicate with their citizens to avoid potential legal issues and to inform them, obviously.

Many regulations should be aligned, at the federal and provincial levels, so that communicating by mail is no longer mandatory.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

You have 25 seconds.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Let's say we go digital. Is that a viable option considering the poor cellular coverage, and the challenges around Internet access?

[Normand St-Amour]

There is no cellular coverage in Chute-Saint-Philippe, just like in most rural municipalities.

That said, more than 50% of Quebeckers do not have digital literacy skills. They know enough to get by, but that's it.