Government Operations Committee on Sept. 24th, 2026

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

I call the meeting to order. Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to OGGO.

We have meeting number 50 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Government Operations and Estimates. We are continuing our study of Motion No. 16, or M-16.

We have two witnesses today—

[An hon. member]

We have two online as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you for correcting me.

Why don't we start with you, Ms. Smith-McCrossin? The floor is yours for five minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin, Member of the Legislative Assembly of the Nova Scotia House of Assembly, Cumberland North, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My name is Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin. I'm the MLA for Cumberland North in Nova Scotia. I'm here to speak about the future of the Colonel James Layton Ralston Armoury in Amherst and M-16, a motion introduced by our local MP.

The motion recognizes the growth in Canada's military and asks her government to examine surplus federal properties for use in veteran services. Her government closed our armoury after 101 years of training soldiers. Her response was to propose another study.

Mr. Chair, I want to be clear that I support providing housing and services for our veterans, but I ask this committee to first consider a fundamental question: Before we dispose of a historic military facility, shouldn't we first determine whether Canada still needs it for military training?

Built in 1915, our armoury connects Amherst to the 85th Battalion at Vimy Ridge and the proud history of our North Nova Scotia Highlanders. The “North Novies” landed in Normandy on D-Day, June 6, 1944, and fought through northwestern Europe. Some never came home. Their motto was “No Retreating Footsteps”.

The regimental museum that was housed in our armoury preserved that history. For generations, reservists and thousands of young cadets have trained in that facility, but in 2016, DND ended reserve use of the Amherst armoury. One year later, Second World War veteran Russell Clarke wrote to the Minister of National Defence about the armoury. The response informed him that DND intended to dispose of the building. This was the first time that our community learned of the plan.

Veterans, cadets and their leaders contacted me and wanted a public meeting. At the packed-house meeting, the public made it clear: They wanted our armoury preserved for military training.

For nine years, we have repeatedly asked for the decision to be reversed. During the pandemic in 2020, DND unexpectedly closed our armoury over “safety concerns”. I organized another public meeting. Our MP at that time, Lenore Zann, joined our meeting and stated that she had talked to the Prime Minister and had explained the importance of the building. Within days, the armoury was reopened. They started the needed repairs, allowing the museum and cadet training to continue.

Local veteran George Manthorne submitted an access-to-information request in 2021 to obtain the documents that led to the decision of the closure, and as of today, he has still not received any of those requested documents.

Then last year, in July 2025, the building was again shuttered with no notice. The regimental museum was closed, and the cadets lost their training facility and were locked out of the building. Our local military community was devastated again.

I want to be perfectly clear: I support safe, dignified housing for our veterans. A local organization has proposed converting our armoury into veterans housing, at a reported cost of $20 million. However, DND owns land just outside of Amherst. The property is 222 acres. I ask the committee to consider whether that land could accommodate purpose-designed veterans housing. We can provide homes for those who have served without sacrificing our armoury, which could train those who want to serve now and in the future.

At this point, I'd like to also draw a parallel. The federal government has also announced plans to close the Nappan Experimental Farm, which has conducted agriculture research in our region for 139 years. In May, I met with federal agricultural department manager Geoffrey Mercer. He told me that he had not only advised that Nappan be closed but that he used to work for DND and that it was he who had advised that the Amherst armoury be divested.

I don't know who ultimately made those decisions or what information informed them, but I do believe that our community deserves to understand why it is facing the loss of the important functions of two long-standing federal institutions through the actions of this government. Does this government not value the people of rural Canada and their expertise in food security and military contributions to this country?

This government is making moves that will weaken our country rather than strengthen it. Why are we losing military training and agriculture research when Canada needs stronger defence capacity, food security and domestic research?

Canada's military recruitment challenges were noted by our Auditor General, who found that the Canadian Armed Forces had not recruited enough members to meet its strategic planned intake targets and that it needed to invest in training infrastructure to accommodate more recruits. Why, then, is DND preparing to dispose of historic military training facilities like the Amherst armoury when Canada should be expanding recruitment and training capacity? It does not make any sense.

I'm asking DND and this government to look to our community as part of the solution. We have people who want to serve our country. We have a proud and significant military history with the North Novies, and we want to contribute to Canada's military future. The North Nova Scotia Highlanders lived by the motto of “No Retreating Footsteps”. Our community has not retreated from its commitment to Canada. As Canada strengthens its armed forces, we ask DND not to retreat from Amherst but to recognize our willingness to serve and to give our community a place in Canada's military future.

I'm asking this committee to recommend two things: first, that alternative federal properties be assessed for veterans housing; and, second, that this government restore reservist training to the Amherst armoury.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Blackburn, welcome to OGGO. I've worked a lot with your food bank in Edmonton. They are incredible people, so we're very proud to support them, and I'm very happy to have you with us today.

The floor is yours for five minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I just want to make sure of something. Yes, we try to maximize speaking time, and the interpreters do an amazing job, but be aware that by the time they finish, we are already on to the next intervention. I understand a bit of English, and you're doing a very good job, but please ask people to slow down. That would be great for everyone.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

That was just asking that we speak a bit more slowly, but the floor is yours, Ms. Blackburn.

Again, welcome.

[Marie Blackburn, Executive Director, Veterans Association Food Bank]

Thank you.

Thanks for the opportunity to speak about the use of underused and surplus federal buildings to help better serve our Canadian veterans.

Using vacant public buildings for affordable housing or building a community hub that could support veterans and families offers a unique economic and social advantage over traditional building from the ground up. A charity of any kind would find it difficult to purchase land due to the astronomical costs, and having a building reduces project timelines and creates a community.

Maintaining empty properties is a continuous strain on taxpayer dollars. If the buildings were to be transferred to not-for-profits, that would decrease costs for security, basic utilities and upkeep. Structurally sound buildings already possess the fundamental and foundational frameworks that are required for construction. Retrofitting can shave months or even years off the time it takes to get families into homes, compared to building from scratch.

Many government facilities are in central prime urban areas close to public transit, employment hubs, grocery stores and health care. Converting these structures would directly integrate low-income residents into a well-connected neighbourhood.

While the potential is vast, converting old buildings into viable, usable spaces is not without its challenges. Many public facilities are strictly zoned for institutional or commercial use, and this could present a significant roadblock. Even without land acquisition fees, retrofitting historic or neglected buildings requires significant upfront capital costs. Sustained funding programs such as low-cost construction loans, grants and assistance from all levels of government are critical to bringing these buildings to life.

Every empty government building represents a missed opportunity to offer someone a safe place to sleep and live. By shifting our perspective and viewing these vacant structures not as liabilities but as a foundation for the future of community infrastructure, we can create a community and fulfill the needs of our veteran community.

I would like to focus specifically on Calgary and a property with a very special connection to our military community. The former Canadian Forces Base Calgary, particularly Currie Barracks CFB, was not simply a collection of federal buildings. For more than six decades, it was part of the military and social fabric of our city. Thousands of Canadian soldiers trained and served there. Families lived there, and people deployed from there, returned home from there, retired from there and then built their homes in Calgary. These are not simply old buildings. They are part of our history.

Several historically significant military buildings remain at Currie Barracks. Rather than looking at these properties for only their commercial or redevelopment value, I believe we should ask what value they could provide for our veteran community with respect to affordable housing. Not only could this space provide affordable housing, but it also would serve as a community hub for many veterans and their families.

The Veterans Association Food Bank could use such a facility for food security and emergency assistance, but the potential goes much further. The Veterans Association provides many services for our veteran community such as the food bank, emergency services, a pet promise program, peer support, training, employment opportunities, a thrift store that benefits all of our veterans and many other services.

Working collaboratively with other organizations, we could provide a space for peer support, mental health and wellness programs, family support, benefits navigation, employment and transition assistance, and education and training. Private rooms could be available for counsellors, psychologists and peer supporters, while meeting and classroom space could be shared with other veteran-serving organizations. Most importantly, it could become a place where veterans know they belong. Redirecting half a million dollars or more from the rent we currently pay each year could go to supporting veterans and their families and could have a massive life-changing impact.

There is something particularly meaningful about providing those services at former CFB Calgary. We often talk about preserving military heritage through plaques, monuments and museums. Those are important, but there is another way to preserve military heritage: Allow these buildings to continue serving the people they were originally built to serve. A building where soldiers once prepared for service could become a building where veterans now are supported after service, and the underused federal property could once again have a mission for the entire country.

I'm not suggesting that every former military building should become a veterans centre. I'm suggesting that before historically significant federal military properties are disposed of, we should ask whether they can continue serving Canadian military and veteran communities. Calgary would be an excellent place to demonstrate this approach.

I therefore encourage this committee to recommend that qualified veteran-serving organizations be given the opportunity to access suitable surplus or underused federal properties—particularly former military properties—before these properties are permanently disposed of.

CFB Calgary served Calgary for many generations. Perhaps part of it can now serve Canadian veterans for generations to come.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much. We appreciate all the work you do in Alberta for us. It's wonderful.

We're going to Mr. McKay, please. The floor is yours for five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.

[Justin McKay, Veteran, As an Individual]

Good afternoon. Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for the opportunity to be able to appear in front of OGGO.

I am the current chair of the Nova Scotia Highlanders Community Council and Regimental Museum. We have just moved the museum into a new facility, as my MLA, Ms. Smith-McCrossin, said.

There are other projects I have worked on that would pertain to this study. We've had a lot of inquiries over the years, and I've had to ask people where to go on veterans housing issues in our county. Any surplus federal land that could be reutilized in our area would be greatly appreciated. Having wraparound services in these properties—whether they be psychological, physiotherapy or even organizations like Echelon Wellness—would serve us well, because they would offer wraparound services to our veteran community and members of the RCMP.

I once trained in the James Ralston armoury here in Amherst, so it holds a special spot for me as well. If possible, I would like to see it saved for some use for veterans, whether it be for housing, for wraparound services or to be used as an armoury again. It's a very important building in our community.

I look forward to getting any questions from the committee members. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thanks, Mr. McKay.

We'll finish with our special guest, the mayor of Amherst.

Before he begins, the mayor provided the committee with some documentation. Unfortunately, it has not been translated in time, so it will be sent out in a few days.

Mayor Small, please go ahead.

[Robert Small, Mayor, Municipality of Amherst]

Good afternoon, Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for pointing out the presentation slide show that goes with this. Certainly the words will be along with it.

Thank you for inviting the Town of Amherst to contribute to this study. The Amherst armoury, officially known as the Colonel James Layton Ralston Armoury, can become veteran housing, offering on-site support services while preserving a nationally significant military landmark. With a coordinated federal pathway, this Amherst-based project can also serve as a practical pilot for similar properties across Canada.

I will begin by explaining why the Amherst armoury matters and how the veteran housing proposal emerged. I will then outline VETS Canada’s concept, the issues that must be resolved and a potential federal delivery model. I will conclude with four recommendations that could move the Amherst project forward and help create a repeatable pathway for other suitable federal properties across Canada.

The armoury has stood in Amherst since 1915. Parks Canada recognizes it for its association with the 85th Canadian Infantry Battalion, the Nova Scotia Highlanders; for its architecture; and for its importance in our community. DND declared the building surplus to military needs in 2016. In 2024, the federal government announced the armoury would be divested, with a focus on housing development and the budget plan to unlock surplus postal and defence lands. Amherst now faces a choice between managed renewal and continued deterioration.

When the federal government identified the armoury for housing in April 2024, VETS Canada co-founder Jim Lowther saw a natural fit. VETS Canada brought the concept to the town. Council supported the direction, committed $50,000 to early project work and heard strong support at community meetings. The current council remains engaged. The idea now needs a durable federal process.

VETS Canada has developed a concept that combines housing, support and a continuing public purpose for this historic building. The design remains preliminary and will require technical, financial and heritage review. VETS Canada envisions approximately 20 apartments for veterans. The concept includes a drop-in centre to connect residents and other local veterans with support. A living Highlanders museum would retain the building's military story. A satellite recruitment presence and a veteran-run coffee shop have also formed part of the concept. The strength lies in their combination: housing beside support, community connection and a continued military presence.

The Amherst proposal creates value across mandates that government often manages separately. It could provide affordable homes and support to veterans, preserve a recognized heritage building, respond to strong community attachment and give DND a responsible route to divest a property it no longer needs. That alignment makes the project worth testing. The barriers are real but identifiable. A non-profit cannot design and fund a building without clarity about transfer terms and timing. It needs complete information about the building, structural work and environmental liabilities. Heritage requirements must inform design early.

Finally, renovation, affordable housing and veteran services sit in different funding systems. The project needs a federal lead and a coordinated table. We recommend a pilot with clear roles. DND would complete and disclose due diligence, settle responsibility for structural and environmental issues, and establish the transfer route. CMHC and federal heritage partners would help fund feasibility, adaptive design and housing capital. Veterans Affairs Canada would help shape and support the service model. VETS Canada or another qualified non-profit would own or lease the property and operate the housing and services.

We ask the committee to recommend four actions: Designate Amherst as a pilot with one accountable federal lead. Fund the predevelopment work needed to determine technical and financial viability. Perform flexible transfer terms when a non-profit delivers sustained public benefit. Then use the lessons from Amherst to create a repeatable pathway for other suitable federal properties. The results would extend beyond Amherst. A historic building remains in use. Veterans gain housing and support. DND gains a responsible path to divest a surplus property. Canada gains a model that other communities can adapt.

Amherst and VETS Canada are ready to continue the work. The Amherst armoury was built for service. It can serve again by providing homes, support and belonging to veterans while preserving a landmark that matters deeply to our community. We ask the federal government to give this project a clear path and to learn from it.

Thank you. I welcome your questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kelly McCauley]

Thank you very much.

We'll start with Mr. Bragdon.

Colleagues, because we have two here in person and two online, could you please be very clear whom you're asking your questions of?

Mr. Bragdon, go ahead for six, please.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses, for being here and for your service. I appreciate hearing your testimony today.

I'd like to address my first question to both the MLA for the region, Ms. Smith-McCrossin, and the mayor. I'd like it if they would both weigh in on this first question.

Were you consulted regarding the closure of the armoury, or how did you find out about it? Could you speak to that?

I'll start with you, Ms. Smith-McCrossin.

[Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin]

The first time, in 2017, I found out from Ray Coulson. The second time, when they closed it suddenly during the pandemic, I found out from Ray Coulson, and the third time, last year, I found out from, again, Ray Coulson. Ray Coulson is a veteran in our community. He's 90 years old. He's been running our regimental museum for a long time. He's very well respected. He only found out the last time when he went and the doors were locked. There was absolutely no communication from the Department of National Defence with anyone in our community.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

How about you, Mayor? Were you consulted? Did you have prior knowledge?

[Robert Small]

No, I did not. I found out from a phone call—Ray Coulson, of course, is one of those people Elizabeth spoke to and I spoke to him as well—and, sadly, Facebook.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

This is also for both of you: What has the reaction of the community been to the announced closing of the armoury? What is the expectation you're picking up from the constituents you represent?

I'll start with you, Ms. Smith-McCrossin.

[Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin]

No one has ever been supportive of the government's decision to close our armoury, right from the very first time when veteran Russell Clarke received that letter in 2017. He has now passed on; he lived to be 100. There's never been anyone in our community who supported that. We've asked for the evidence, what led to the decision. We've never been able to get that information.

One of our veterans, George Manthorne, did an access to information request in 2021. I contacted him this week. He still has not received any of the studies, documents or reports that the government used to make its decision.

I will add that the North Novies played a significant role in Canada's history and at Vimy Ridge. We have an incredibly proud community, not just in the town of Amherst but also in northern Nova Scotia. We actually had the largest reservist regiment in all of Canada—now the Nova Scotia Highlanders.

Our veteran here, Justin McKay, recently organized for Amherst to have a monument to honour those who served in Afghanistan. He recently organized an event to commemorate 9/11. People come out in our community to honour those who have sacrificed their lives for our country. No one in our community wants it to be only historical. People want to continue to serve. They want our armouries to be reopened, and they want to be able to contribute to Canada's military.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Mayor.

[Robert Small]

Yes, I think it's a disappointment. It's a see-saw case, in my opinion. One minute they're going to fix it, and everybody's glad to see that happening after a long period of time. Then it's closing and is closed. There's a lot of disappointment. People are hopeful that we'll find a way forward. We believe that the project we proposed does provide a way forward. As far as the community goes, as indicated by Elizabeth, we have a very strong presence of military here, and they want to see it open up.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you, Mayor.

I would like to ask Mr. McKay the same question.

From your vantage point and perspective as a veteran, what has been the feedback from your fellow veterans and others in your community? What is their sense of how this has happened and where it's going?

[Justin McKay]

A lot of the former unit members and the veterans in our community I've talked to about it are quite upset that it's being closed. The status right now is very unknown, as we've all talked about here in the last couple of statements. They would like to know what's happening one way or the other.

Like Ms. Smith-McCrossin and Mr. Small have said, we have a proud military heritage in northern Nova Scotia and in Amherst, and we want to see that preserved. The best way to do that is to keep buildings like this around and repurpose them for better uses if they're not being used properly.

[Richard Bragdon, Conservative, Tobique—Mactaquac, NB]

Thank you.

Ms. Smith-McCrossin, what do you feel is the best path forward? What would you request that the government consider as a plausible way of finding a way to make it work for the armoury and, obviously, for tackling the challenge of veteran homelessness and housing?

[Elizabeth Smith-McCrossin]

Let me start with housing and our veterans. There's no question that our government needs to do a better job of providing support to those who have served our country—full stop.

We have plenty of land. We're in rural Nova Scotia, in rural Canada, and land is in abundance. We don't need to put a housing project for veterans.... We don't need to use the armoury for that, especially if it's going to cost $20 million. I know that money is in silos in the federal government, but if we're going to spend $20 million for 16 units, I think most people in our community would say to use that money to fix what needs to be fixed in our armoury, and then use the rest of the money to build housing on land where you don't need to demolish or take down a heritage building that has contributed to Canadian history. Absolutely, we need to build housing and support our veterans.

I will also add a little note for those who are here from Veterans Affairs that I do not agree with their decision to take away.... We used to have, in Nova Scotia, designated long-term care beds for veterans. My grandfather, who served our country, was in one for 10 years before he passed at the age of 90. They no longer have that guarantee, so housing is important for our veterans.

I will add, with regard to our armoury—