Health Committee on Feb. 19th, 2007

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Deirdre, it's nice to see you again. I think I can say on behalf of all of us that we're really appreciative of the significant amount of time you're spending to help us with our nutritional challenges here in Canada.

Since we last met I have raised the issue of traffic light labelling with industry. I think it's fair to say there has been a high level of concern about it. In one case the push-back was that it was not working in the U.K. I wonder if you have a response to the individual who said that.

[Deirdre Hutton]

Without knowing on what basis they made that remark, it's quite difficult to answer. Truly, it is too early to say it isn't working in the U.K., and it's equally too early to say it is. But some of the anecdotal information we have is showing changes in consumer purchasing behaviour in a healthier direction. Equally important is the point Gill made at the beginning that in everything we're doing in this area we're trying to institute systems that include incentives for industry to reformulate in a healthier direction, and there is some evidence of that happening.

If, for example, you're producing a ready meal that would have four red lights on it, there is quite a strong incentive on you as a retailer to try to change that to four amber lights, or maybe even two green lights and two amber ones. We have some evidence of that happening, and that is as important a part of what we're doing as trying to change consumer behaviour.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

I think what you're suggesting is correct.

There's another push-back, in that some members of the industry have said it's just too simplistic; that the labels in Canada provide far more information than the traffic light system. We recognize that not a lot of people read the labels, and if they do, they may not understand them. But have you heard that in the U.K., and what is your response to a statement of that nature?

[Deirdre Hutton]

We certainly have heard that, and I'll hand it over to one of my colleagues.

[Gill Fine]

In the U.K. we also have a lot of detailed nutrition information on the back of the label, and the front-of-pack label is to work as a complement to that. Then somebody in a busy supermarket can see at a glance the key nutrients that are of most concern in the U.K., in terms of over-consumption.

In the work we did over a year ago with 2,500 consumers, we checked how they felt about seeing traffic light colours. Overwhelmingly, it was the colour coding that actually helped them interpret, over the information that was provided for them.

[Deirdre Hutton]

I'm not at all surprised you've had the push-back from industry. If you go back two or three years in the U.K., not a single company wanted to put front-of-pack nutritional labelling on their products. There has been an absolute sea change in the response of both manufacturing and the retailing industry in the U.K. They've come to see themselves really as part of the solution for the nutritional problems we have. So now virtually every company is using front-of-pack labelling in a way that would have been unthinkable two years ago.

We may not always like the system they're using, but virtually every company has recognized that it's important to provide simple, clear, front-of-pack labelling.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

The system in the U.K. is voluntary. Do you see it becoming mandatory any time soon?

[Deirdre Hutton]

Labelling is an EU competence, so it can only be made mandatory by the European Union. That would involve getting 26 countries to agree, so we don't see it in the near future. We would like to see it over the longer term have broad agreement across Europe, but it certainly won't happen quickly.

[Gill Fine]

Yes, it is definitely the view. Also, I would say that if we can get the level of interest and engagement within a year, which has so far happened from different parts of industry, to adopt approaches to approve front-of-pack labelling and it's working voluntarily, then it does question whether we need to go straight to mandatories. We have to really check it, see it, and then, as Deirdre mentioned earlier, evaluate the impact of that before moving to a mandatory approach.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

In Canada we will have trouble getting one country to agree, so we can appreciate your challenge.

I am short of time here, but you mentioned this is just one part of a much larger approach that the U.K. is utilizing to fight obesity. Since this committee is looking at child obesity, I wonder if you could share with us some other areas where you feel Canada could learn from the U.K. and which should be included in our report.

[Deirdre Hutton]

I'm always very nervous about thinking we can teach other countries anything, Steven, and I wouldn't presume to do that, but I'm sure we're happy to tell you what we've doing.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

You guys taught us a lot about how to run a good parliamentary system, so we're grateful for that.

[Rosemary Hignett]

Another important element of the work we're doing is looking at the nutrient profiling of foods that are being sold. We're currently talking with industry stakeholders particularly about the opportunities for reducing saturated fat levels in foods and also looking at the energy density of foods, which includes both looking at reformulation and looking at reductions in portion size. We're hoping to go to consultation of a draft strategy in those two areas in the next month or so. We'll be, obviously, very happy to share that document with you when it's ready.

It's very important that we say the lead on obesity is not with the Food Standards Agency in the U.K. It's with health departments, because of the physical activity element, which of course is something we don't have within our remit.

[Gill Fine]

If I could just add to that, some of the other areas we're working on are around the promotion of foods to children and also the provision of foods or advice about foods in schools. So that's changing the environmental aspects in terms of children, being vulnerable groups, receiving messages about healthy eating or not. The promotion of foods to children is an area we are taking very seriously, and we are working with other government departments on that.

[Steven Fletcher, Conservative, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Thank you very much.

If the committee would allow me, I'd like to proceed with a couple of quick questions from the chair. I don't like to do this, but if I don't see any resistance, one of the questions I have is this.

You have chosen four different criteria, those being fats, saturated fats, sugars, and salt. Our testimony up until now in our committee suggests, particularly with obesity, that the problem really is calories, and I'm wondering why you wouldn't choose calories as one of the criteria on your packaging that you would traffic-light.

[Rosemary Hignett]

In practice, we found in the research we did with consumers that consumers told us they understood already the numerical information they were receiving on calories. It was the numerical information on fats and sugars that they found more difficult to interpret, but they knew if something was high in fat or high in sugar it would be bound to have lots of calories in it.

Our consumer research didn't suggest that a traffic light colour code would be necessarily helpful in the area of calories, but it has to be said that when we recommended those four core principles, we also said that businesses might want to provide additional information on, for instance, calories. We have found in practice that most of the businesses that have adopted the four core principles have decided in addition to provide information on calories. In practice, that is happening.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

That would explain a little bit. It wasn't mentioned. It struck me as odd that calories would be left out of the discussion.

The other one we are concerned with in Canada, as I'm sure you are there as well, is trans fats. I am wondering what you're doing with trans fats with regard to labelling and what approach the United Kingdom has with trans fats as a whole.

[Rosemary Hignett]

Our intakes of trans fats are quite a bit lower than they are in North America, but it is still an issue of concern to consumers. Currently trans fats aren't labelled in the U.K., and we are unable to ask for trans fat labelling because of EU legislation. EU legislation is currently under review, and parts of those review discussions are focusing on whether in addition to provide information on trans fats.

Our answer there is maybe in the future we will be wrapping trans fats into front-of-pack labelling in due course, but at the moment they're not included.

[Gill Fine]

If I could just add to that, the whole area of fats and getting a better balance in people's diets with regard to fats is also a very important area for the agency. We will be going out to do consultation shortly with a package about reformulation and what can be done to help improve the level of saturated fat--by which I mean to reduce it--in the U.K. We're very concerned that reducing trans fats not result in increasing saturated fats. We think it's important that these be taken in concert.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Yes. And that's something we should take note of as well. The elimination of trans fat is only part of the answer. It's also about replacing it with the low saturated fat.

Of course, in Canada we feel we have the solution with our low saturated canola oil, so we just take note of that, because Europe might come knocking at our door soon.

I also have a question on the cost of changing the labelling. I know you said there was a 30% uptake in the industry. Has there been a significant cost in changing that labelling, or is it minuscule?

[Rosemary Hignett]

Most of the businesses we've been working with have been changing their labels inside their normal cycle of label changes. Most of the sorts of products that we've been talking about for front-of-pack labelling are relabelled very frequently in any case in order to keep the packaging looking fresh and exciting for consumers.

This, again, is another advantage of having a voluntary approach. It allows businesses to make changes within their normal labelling cycling changes rather than requiring them to take on additional cost.

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

Then the question on volunteer labelling—and this is sort of a follow-up from Mr. Fletcher. You said you were bound because of the EU regulations, but if you were not, would you be pushing for it to be mandatory or would you leave it as voluntary? I can see that if an industry had a green light product and had multiple green lights on their package, they would use it as a marketing tool, and the uptake would be very good, but if you had a product that received a couple of red lights, you might be very reluctant to take part in a traffic light program.

So I'm wondering where you think the saturation level would be, if I might put it that way, with regard to the uptake on the volunteer side.

[Deirdre Hutton]

I think it's a very complex argument. If you go down the voluntary route, you actually have to win the hearts and minds of industry—

[The Chair, Conservative, Rob Merrifield]

That's right.