Health Committee on Dec. 6th, 2007

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I'd appreciate the breakdown.

Back to my first question, I wonder if you can provide any information on your projections around the number of aboriginal people who would be able to access the children's fitness tax credit.

[Robert Eyahpaise]

Okay.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Mr. Hill, your paper suggests that you're going to review the food mail program and a few other aspects. It seems to me that one issue you haven't touched on is that even when good quality food gets to the north--that might include fruits and vegetables--we're still talking about being unable to afford to pay the prices for these goods.

Do you have any recommendations around the northern allowance, and any other recommendations that would help aboriginal people, on and off reserve, in remote and isolated communities access food when it is available?

[Andrew Lieff, Senior Advisor to the Deputy Minister, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

I can start. Fred is certainly the expert on food mail.

I've been asked by the department to lead a fundamental review of the program. Actually, my appointment on this was coincidental with the government's response and the tabling of your report.

The terms of reference for that review are broad, and we want to be looking at more than the food mail program, as you suggest, since there are a number of determinants to whether people can actually afford the food and to whether they're actually making choices to eat the food, regardless of the price and affordability. We will be looking at those things and at how those things interact with each other in the context of the review, so that we can make sure we're targeting our efforts where they're going to make the most difference. We will certainly be talking with our colleagues in Finance about their feelings in that area.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

But you would know now the discrepancies in prices between southern and northern communities. A quart of milk would be how many times the price of a quart of milk in, say, Ottawa?

[Andrew Lieff]

I'll defer to my colleague, but in general I would say that probably on average it's about twice the rate throughout the north, and that is with the food mail program that already significantly reduces the cost from what it would otherwise be.

I would caveat that by saving that the prices throughout the north differ, depending often on the distance from southern centres, but for a variety of other reasons as well, so there's not an average kind of difference. Of course, the further north and the more isolated and remote the community, the more expensive it would be. The food mail program helps equalize those costs across the region.

What we can say with some assurance is that prices under food mail are much lower than they would otherwise be. The impact is the highest in the farthest and most remote and isolated communities. We could probably send you some examples as to what the situation is in various representative communities.

Fred, would you have other thoughts? Could you be more specific?

[Fred Hill, Manager, Northern Food Security, Department of Indian Affairs and Northern Development]

With respect to milk in particular, a two-litre carton of milk is generally in the $6 to $7 range in isolated communities using the food mail program.

We do monitor prices in communities that use it, and we will shortly, as Robert mentioned, be launching a new food basket to track not just the prices of individual foods but also the cost of a healthy diet that is consistent with Canada's food guide.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Would you be able to conclude now, without further study, that lack of access to wholesome food and out-of-range prices for good foods are factors contributing to obesity among aboriginal children?

[Fred Hill]

I could say that it is clear from the studies we have done that the three major barriers to consuming healthy foods such as vegetables, fruit, and milk, as reported by community residents, are price, quality, and availability. That's been established from baseline surveys in our pilot communities and an additional survey in Labrador. Those are aspects of the food supply that we're dealing with specifically through this program. But on its own, even if food mail service was free, rather than 80¢ a kilogram, which is the rate charged, I'm not sure food would even be affordable at that rate.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lui Temelkovski]

Thank you very much, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

We'll move on to Mr. Tilson.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My questions, Mr. Chairman, deal with advertising. I suppose they're mainly to Mr. Hutton and Ms. Vallee. I would appreciate getting a copy of this broadcast code.

Advertising is certainly a powerful influence on our society. I have a house full of toys just to prove it.

Mr. Hutton, in your presentation you talked about restrictions on advertising during children's programs. As the code points out, there's obviously the pressure that's put on by children on mom and dad. I guess my question goes to the restrictions for advertising. Maybe I've misinterpreted what you've said. Why would that just apply to children's programming? I see advertising to children on television. I suppose children are still up, but adults are seeing it, and it isn't the best of foods. So my question is this. Why wouldn't you apply that beyond that certain time of the day when there's children's programming?

[Scott Hutton]

The codes do apply beyond children's programming. We're being specific with regard to children's programming, but it also applies to advertising potentially directed at children. So all of those advertisements are pre-cleared and are judged against the code and the guidelines that ASC has put in place.

I can ask Linda to maybe add a little more on the process on that front for you.

[Linda Nagel, President and Chief Executive Officer, Advertising Standards Canada]

The children's broadcast code defines children's advertising as advertising for which children are the predominant users, and the advertising is directed in a manner that is specific to children.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I've just seen this for the first time, so I'm not too familiar with this document, the broadcast code for advertising to children. I'm pleased you brought that to the committee to make us aware of that.

I wonder if you can tell me the process for how restrictions are put on through the CRTC specifically. Presumably there's legislation, there's regulation, there are guidelines, and there are all kinds of things. How does that work? Who decides those things and how does that happen? Let's say, in particular, someone in your office says, “This food isn't good. This particular food is not good. It's going to make some kid fat.” How do you regulate all that? How does that happen?

[Scott Hutton]

I'll start with that last point. The CRTC is not the body, nor do we have the expertise or the mandate, to determine that this food is not good. We rely on the regulations that are put in place by Health Canada under the Food and Drugs Act. So we defer to them and work with them in that regard. They're the people who determine that.

How does the mechanism work? Essentially what the CRTC does is through conditions of licence; each and every broadcaster receives a licence. We place a condition of licence upon them, requiring them to follow this code. So although the code has been developed and is administered by the ASC, it is really the CRTC that ultimately enforces the code. Broadcasters must ensure that the advertisements they put on their channels or on the airwaves respect the code. It is their responsibility. That's how we give this mechanism force of law. The CRTC regulates broadcasters. Broadcasters must follow this code.

What happens over and above that is that broadcasters are required...and they go to Linda Nagel's organization, the advertising standards councils, to pre-clear pursuant to the code. That organization administers the codes, provides guidelines, and updates them. Ultimately we approve whatever code through a public process. Whatever's put in place, it's our responsibility, but they administer the code. They administer pre-clearance. Every advertisement destined to children is pre-cleared. Food is pre-cleared through this organization. So it never appears on the air. Broadcasters have the responsibility to make sure that if it is not pre-cleared and it does not respect this code, it doesn't appear on the air. So there is quite a precise mechanism for that.

[David Tilson, Conservative, Dufferin—Caledon, ON]

I'm sure you and I have seen something on television, an ad, and said, “That food makes you fat.” I bet you've done that. I've certainly done that. But then again, you and I may be wrong; maybe it doesn't make you fat.

So you and I agree that what's in the ad is not good for you, for whatever reason—our common knowledge, or whatever—but notwithstanding that, you and I may both be wrong.

I guess where I'm going on this is, how did the regulators, whoever they are, decide that a particular advertisement is inappropriate for children and inappropriate for adults?

[Scott Hutton]

You and I can agree personally that a certain food may cause obesity. It is the responsibility of Health Canada, and the people within that portfolio, to make those calls. As a regulator, I cannot make that call for them. I don't have that authority or responsibility. I rely on them. So in our regulations and in the code, we respect what they put in place.

To the second part of your question, if one sees an ad that is deemed to be inappropriate, there is a complaint mechanism and there is a review mechanism. It starts with the ASC, and then, should that not be satisfactory, it would move to the CRTC for ultimate resolution.

[Linda Nagel]

I have just a quick comment.

All broadcast advertisements for food are subject to two layers of approval. The first review is to ensure that food advertising is consistent with the provisions of the Food and Drugs Act and regulations—which, of course, is Health Canada's regulations—and the Canadian Food Inspection Agency's guide to food labelling and advertising. That's the first layer of review.

The second layer of review, which is very special, on children's advertising is against the provisions of this code. As I think Scott mentioned just a few minutes ago, in new guidelines in the last year, several new things have happened.

First of all, three new guidelines were added to help target this whole issue, to ensure that serving sizes for children were appropriate and that advertising encouraged healthy lifestyles.

The next thing that happened is that in April of this year, industry announced that 15 major food manufacturers and food advertisers were embarking on a new voluntary program, called the Canadian children’s food and beverage advertising initiative. In this program, these 15 advertisers have committed to reducing and changing the shape of their advertising that is specifically directed at children, to promote healthier choices and to encourage healthy lifestyle messages to be included in advertising. This initiative will apply across all media.

The specific commitments for the children's initiative will be announced early in 2008, and we'll share them with you then.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lui Temelkovski]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Chan.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

First of all, thank you to the guests who appeared at this committee.

Mr. Chairman, this is my first time participating on this committee, so I didn't have very much time to go through the response from the government. The first feeling I had after browsing through the report is that I share the feeling of my colleagues on the lack of response from the government in this report.

For example, just on the first recommendation, where the committee has recommended setting benchmarks in dealing with this problem, trying to reduce it from 8% to 6% by 2020, in the government's response they refuse to set any benchmark. That's not being responsible.

Also, if you look at the response to the first recommendation, they talk about the lack of experience in getting data and so on for this issue. Yet it's amazing, in the section on heavy weight they say the CCHS included a one-time survey and found that there is 26% obesity among children to age 17. But they won't do any assessment again until five years later, until 2012. If it's such a big problem we're facing, why wouldn't we do a survey sooner than five years? How come we're not monitoring this problem more closely?

The other problem I have is that I heard that the problem within the aboriginal community is twice as bad as in the general population.

My question is for the gentleman from Indian Affairs. I understand that the lead on this issue is Health Canada, but have you participated to exercise your duty? If the problem in the aboriginal community is twice as bad as in the general population, are you able to insist on or to get your fair share of the government's efforts to double the effort in the aboriginal community? Keep in mind that a lot of the natives won't be able to take advantage of some of the tax credits from the finance department because most of them don't pay federal tax.

[Robert Eyahpaise]

You are asking a very difficult question that's really of a broader nature in terms of the responsibilities of Health Canada and this department: the jurisdictional issue of who is doing what. This is a dilemma that has been faced by both of our departments. What we have been trying to do, though, wherever we could, say, for instance, when we deal with the social determinants of health, is to try to engage both departments in talking about the issues. Very much like the poverty rate of children, for instance—we have three out of five aboriginal children under six who are living in poverty, and that's a social issue, but in the meantime it goes directly to the health issue of these children—this is where there has been very much a concerted effort by both departments to engage at the working level to say yes, we have jurisdictional differences here, but how do we work together to try to improve the social determinants of health?

Wherever opportunities arise to do that, it is one of the thrusts we try to make. It is not only on the health side, but in all social program areas—for instance, in youth suicide, which is in some ways a Department of Health issue, but it's an Indian Affairs issue as well. What we have done is engage the appropriate departments, Health Canada and us, to ask how we will resolve this issue.

It's very much an ongoing discussion. Then it's a question of coordinating it, for instance, with the new tax credit we're talking about. Again, a concerted effort is being made, but there definitely has to be more coordination of the appropriate departments to address this, because the issue of childhood social and health problems somehow at times gets compartmentalized because of program authorities and program funding. What we're trying to do is to ask how to over-layer that and work in partnership.

Definitely this has been very much a concern of ours.

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lui Temelkovski]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chan.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

May I have one more question?

[The Vice-Chair, Liberal, Lui Temelkovski]

Perhaps you may on the next round, but now we'll move on to Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I have a couple of questions, first of all for the Finance people.

I am referring to recommendation number 11. I don't know whether you have the report in front of you or not, but it's talking about establishing a reliable baseline with respect to the number of children who enrol—you've referred to some of this before—and then reporting on the uptake of the children's tax credit within two years and evaluating the effectiveness and reporting within five years.

I'm going to ask two or three questions here and then let everybody answer.

My question to the Finance people is, have you met the recommendations this committee put together as far as a timeline is concerned? Does your response clearly indicate that you're going to meet the recommended timelines?

That's my question to Finance. I also have a question for Mr. Hutton.

When we talked about advertising at the committee, when we were doing this study, one of the biggest questions that was left was, who has jurisdiction over what kids actually can see? I wonder if you could refresh my memory and comment a bit on whether, in this day of satellite TV and all of the broadcasts that are coming in that are not Canadian broadcasts to which kids have access, your codes of advertising apply to this area or whether there is a restricted area that you have jurisdiction over.

My third question, to INAC, refers to recommendation number 12. Part of that recommendation said “provide appropriate healthy food and physical activity standards and programs in first nations schools within federal jurisdiction”. I'd like you to comment on that, please.

Thank you.