Health Committee on June 11th, 2009

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Would anybody like to comment on that? No?

All right, time is up.

We'll go to Monsieur Dufour.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My first question is for Casa Cubana.

When did you begin adding flavouring to cigarillos? Was it in response to market demand? Did you do any market studies? As a general rule, before launching a new product, market studies are conducted. Did you sense that there was some interest in this type of product among cigarette smokers and among non-smokers?

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Who would like to take that question?

Mr. Stewart.

[Glen Stewart, Director, Marketing and Product Development, Casa Cubana]

First of all, we do not manufacture the products; they're all brought in from the United States. We thought the flavoured cigarillo market, while it was developed in the States, would be a good fit up here for smokers looking for an alternative.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Earlier, you acknowledged that Health Canada had not done any research on this subject. However, according to a study done in 2008 by the Institut de la statistique du Québec, high school students smoked a greater number of cigarillos than cigarettes in 2008. Yet, you admitted in a letter to the committee that Health Canada was well aware that the vast majority of Canadians who smoke cigarillos, both flavoured and non flavoured, were of legal age, or more than 25 years old. You admitted it during a meeting. However, in the same letter, you also note that the government did not do any kind of research on the type of product minors are consuming, or the origin or amount of tobacco products consumed.

That puzzles me a great deal. On the one hand, we hear claims that studies have been done, while on the other hand, people are claiming that no studies have been conducted.

[Luc Martial]

The reason is that some of the information is gleaned from the Youth Smoking Survey which was conducted in Quebec, and also from the Canadian Tobacco Use Monitoring Survey. However, all of the reports about this type of product are based on very general information.

I'm saying that Health Canada does not have any specific information because the products consumed are not specified. The aim of the Canadian Tobacco Use Monitoring Survey was to find out if people had smoked a cigar or cigarillo, either flavoured or unflavoured, in the past 30 days. It is impossible to tell from the survey whether the product consumed was flavoured or unflavoured, how often the product was smoked, the quantity consumed or where the product originated.

Mention was made of the contraband trade. An illicit market also exists for flavoured products. The RCMP reports that over the past six months, approximately 800,000 flavoured little cigars have been seized. The Akwesasne Mohawks have started to make their own little flavoured cigars known as Tomahawks on their reserve. I have provided pertinent information about this development to all parliamentarians.

The problem is that no one has any idea of how often people consume this product. The government wants to restrict unit sales to limit the product's accessibility to minors.Yet, it is not known whether young people are purchasing cigars in single units. For example, the nephew of a friend of mine purchases Honey Time cigars manufactured by Distribution GVA in packages of 20 units. I'd also just like to say that Distribution GVA has found a retailer willing to sell its products. The retailer in question also sells single cigars for $1 each. What purpose does it serve to ban unit sales when young people are already purchasing the product in packages of 20 units?

All I am asking, since I am concerned about tobacco control, is that some research be conducted. I've been requesting this for a year now. The kind of research I have in mind would take only two months, not two years. Right now, the government is moving blindly to bring in regulations, without having a clear picture of the situation.

One thing is clear—and I have provided all committee members with information from the RCMP— and that is if the sale of these legal flavoured products is banned, the products will continue to find their way onto the market. Furthermore, these products will certainly continue to be sold on the contraband market and to be available to young people, not to mention that they will be more affordable as well.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

Do you not think that this legislation would at least be a step in the right direction? Obviously, in addition to this legislation, much stricter measures need to be brought in to address the contraband problem. However, wouldn't you agree that this bill is a step in the right direction? Our next step could be to address the issue of contraband sales.

[Luc Martial]

Thank you for the question.

When I worked for Health Canada, I was assigned to the Strategic Planning and Policy Office. I was Health Canada's representative on the interdepartmental working group on tobacco taxation and smuggling, which had been set up by Allan Rock, the then Minister of Health. Also represented were Justice Canada, Revenue Canada, Finance Canada and Health Canada. Everyone was represented. At the time, I was in charge of coordinating the Treasury Board submission pursuant to which $480 million was allocated between 2001 and 2006 for tobacco control.

I recall asking RCMP officials how much money their organization needed to fight smuggling. They told me that it was not a matter of money and that smuggling could not be controlled. That was nine years ago, and today they are still saying the same things in their press releases. At most, they can seize 5% of known contraband products. They know that about 105 criminal groups are involved in the contraband trade of tobacco and other products. They are unable to stop or control the contraband trade.

As I mentioned, only one study has been done and it found that these products are being consumed by people who are of legal age. Some people became offended and decided that they no longer wanted to see flavoured products on store shelves. However, there is no reason to ban these products, because that would only add to the contraband problems we already have and which we know cannot be controlled. RCMP officials have been telling us for the past nine years that they will never get the upper hand on the contraband trade.

[Nicolas Dufour, Bloc, Repentigny, QC]

I have here samples of two products that are distributed by your company. To my way of thinking, they are far more attractive to young people than they are to adults.

[Vincent Albanese, President and Chief Executive Officer, Distribution GVA Inc.]

Pursuant to Quebec's Bill 112, the products cannot be displayed or purchased openly. A minimum transaction price has been established for these products.

[Luc Dumulong]

A minimum transaction price has been established for tobacco sales. What is being recommended here is that the federal government set a minimum transaction price for the sale of tobacco products.

As a result of this legislation, unit sales of these products fell to zero in the space of a year. Single units are no longer being sold. What we now have are packages of 20 units and products like these ones for adults. However, these products will also disappear from the market. And new products will find their way onto the contraband market. The people who manufacture these products on the reserves don't care. They are laughing.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Thank you, Mr. Dumulong.

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Madam Chairperson, and thanks to all of you.

For all of the people who are listening and have been working in this field for 20 or 30 years, like Les, this must be a bit like déjà vu. Many of the young people who have been testifying wouldn't have been through this round of arguments, where we have presenters from the industry suggesting there's nothing wrong with these products in terms of health and well-being. I think it's just shocking that we have to go through all this again. It must be very frustrating for people like Neil Collishaw and Rob Cunningham, who have been at this for so many years, to have to repeat the battles time and time again.

Let me start by asking Les what he would say in response to Luc Martial's comment that this law, if passed, would make tobacco products much cheaper for Canadian smokers, especially kids, and would lead to all kinds of horrible consequences.

[Les Hagen]

This law, if not passed, will have a huge impact on youth in Canada. The data already shows that young people are taking to these products--vanilla, strawberry, chocolate, banana, peach--the list goes on and on. It's as plain as the packaging they're in to whom these products are targeted. There's no question about that in anyone's mind at this table who is not part of the tobacco industry.

If MPs here as legislators don't feel they have the authority to deal with such a fundamental public health problem that kills more Canadians than all other forms of preventable illnesses combined.... One out of every two users of tobacco in Canada dies prematurely. We have kids taking up tobacco at record levels. The industry continues to come up with crafty and objectionable marketing strategies. I encourage you to fight the good fight like the rest of us, keep after this industry--you know what they're like--and come back with more and more legislation to take care of this problem.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

It's objectionable advertising that not only appeals to young people. Even if these may be prohibited in Quebec--

[Vincent Albanese]

They're not prohibited.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

--or the price is such that they are, if you want to hold up the fact that Quebec doesn't have a market for them, then you can see the wisdom of getting rid of them. Your company produces them and they appeal to kids right across this country. You have no objection to a bill that gets rid of the flavouring and allows them to be packaged in small numbers, as opposed to 20.

[Vincent Albanese]

When you walk into a store, you cannot see them; they are hidden.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

It doesn't matter. They're easy to access. My kids can access them. I can walk down the street in any part of this country--

[A witness]

[Inaudible--Editor]

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Excuse me. Let Ms. Wasylycia-Leis finish and then I'll recognize you.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

They're available, and not all convenience stores and retailers are either as vigilant as you claim or that ethical. So let's get the facts straight. Kids are getting these, and 25% of consumers reported, when they were asked what they had used in the past 30 days, that the use was among those 15 to 19 years old. They are not legal-aged smokers. We're talking about 16% of boys and girls aged 15 to 19 having smoked a cigarillo in the past 30 days.

We make the linkage between those who have started smoking these and how they go on to other cigarettes. Mr. Luc Martial can stand here today and say there's no problem. Come on, let's put the facts on the table. Let's realize you have a product to market and you're going to do whatever it takes.

Let's go to Luc with GVA. You said trade would be a problem. You're telling me that a trade tribunal anywhere--in the United States or Canada--is going to say that if Canada prohibits these individual flavoured cigarillos--

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, can I interrupt you for a minute? You have to let Mr. Albanese answer your questions.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

But I didn't ask him a question yet.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Yes, you did. I was listening carefully. Can you ask a question so that you can get an answer from him, please?