Health Committee on June 11th, 2009

[Tamara Gitto]

We would be okay with the bill as it relates to additives, yes.

[Judy Wasylycia-Leis, NDP, Winnipeg North, MB]

I want to ask one more question of Les and anyone else who wants to answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry, Ms. Wasylycia-Leis. We'll now go to Dr. Carrie and Mr. Uppal, who are going to split their time.

Go ahead, Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I'd like to give the witnesses a little bit of time to get their answers on the record.

The first question I'd like to ask is to Mr. Martial or Mr. Dumulong. Do you legitimately see flavouring, such as peach punch, peanut butter, banana, and strawberry as being targeted to an adult audience? That's the first question.

The second question is to Ms. Gitto. You mentioned unintended consequences. You talked about harm reduction and research. I was wondering if you could give the committee examples of a harm reduction or research strategy that would require flavourings. When you did your presentation, you said we might be wise to include that.

[Luc Martial]

To answer the first question, our yardstick for measuring and monitoring smoking behaviour in this country is the Canadian tobacco use monitoring survey. It's been a $1 million initiative between Statistics Canada and Health Canada every year since 1999. This survey data tells us that 91% of people who actually consume these products are of legal age, a legal age that was mandated into law by Canadian governments. Are minors getting access to these products? Absolutely. But they are also getting far greater access to non-flavoured cigarettes. They are getting far greater access to alcohol and gambling products. They're getting greater access to marijuana.

In terms of the use of flavours, the exact same flavours found in the products we produce and sell to a legal-age audience are found in a much wider variety and in a greater quantity of alcohol beverages approved for sale by every Canadian government every day. To ask that the industry concede that the only people who would be interested in flavours are obviously kids is to then ask the government to concede that they're targeting kids to become alcoholics through the use of strawberry or peach in vodkas and other types of alcohol products. Adults have come to expect a variety of flavours in their products, and we see this through the statistics. Nobody here sells to kids. Nobody wants to sell to kids. These people are here today because they don't want to lose their market of a legal-age audience that you said they could market and sell to.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Mr. Dumulong, do you want to add anything to that?

[Luc Dumulong]

It reflects very much what our position is. I would say, though, that by banning these flavours.... As in the case we made earlier, with this volume of business.... We are looking at 400 million sticks, these flavoured cigarillos, now being on the market--up from 50 million. But nobody knows who is consuming them, except that Statistics Canada says that 91% of those consumers are adults. Now, by banning these products, who is going to get that market and reap those benefits? It will be Imperial Tobacco, Rothmans, Benson and Hedges, and they're laughing.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Maybe, Madam Chair, I'll let Mr. Uppal ask his question, because I've gone over time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Yes, Mr. Uppal, go ahead.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Hagen, I'm going to start with you. Some of the numbers that you just cited...and I had one here saying that 15% of young people in Alberta have tried smokeless tobacco. That is almost double that of Canadians in general. Those numbers are alarming, and that's of concern to me.

Further to the numbers, can you tell me about the organization that put the numbers together, because I'm being told those numbers aren't correct, that they're not real. Can you tell me about the numbers?

[Les Hagen]

Those numbers are all referenced, for starters, in the documents provided. The documents were prepared by Alberta Health Services and by AADAC, which is now an agency of Alberta Health Services. The number regarding teens using flavoured, smokeless tobacco at three times the use of adults is from Health Canada.

All that data is sourced, and we're happy to provide all of those sources to you if there's any question on the quality of the data.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Sure.

The other thing that struck me was that a tin of smokeless tobacco is $22 in Alberta. That seems high for young people to be using.

[Les Hagen]

That's a 30-gram tin, a large tin. But you can buy smokeless tobacco for less than $10.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

You can buy it for less than $10 in Alberta?

[Les Hagen]

Yes.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

Just going back to Imperial Tobacco, you said that if we created a list of things that can be in the product, that would be good for you. Are you concerned that this might be a problem with corporate secrets or anything like that?

[Gaëtan Duplessis]

In relation to having a list, you have to understand that you have to provide a mechanism for a list. In other words, if you establish a positive list, you have to establish a mechanism by which that list can evolve over time, because suppliers have new technologies and they will want to change things, like how they make the paper, the filter material. So if you're going to take an approach that is a positive list, then you have to provide a mechanism for review, and then it becomes extremely awkward.

If you take a different approach, an approach where a list is created through what the intent of the material is, combined with what it must not be, then it becomes relatively easy for a legislator or a health official to be able to evaluate a product and say there is no problem with it. We'd have a guideline by which to evaluate a product or an ingredient, so we could say, “Okay, that's what it can be”, or “These are the kinds of purposes that are allowable and these are the kinds of effects that are not allowable.” It becomes very easy to make the judgment as to whether you can or can't.

It's just a question of how one wants to establish the approach and the framework by which you establish the regulations. We're certainly open to advancing any discussions as to how to make that workable.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

My other question is for most of you here. Your industry, your business, relies on the corner store clerk monitoring who is buying this product and who isn't. Is there training, that you know of, for these clerks of the average corner store?

[Luc Dumulong]

If I may, I regret the fact that the retailers are not being heard here today. There are 24,000 convenience stores across Canada that have been working hard and making sure they're compliant in terms of age restriction. I think if I'm not mistaken, the compliance rate now in convenience stores is very comparable to what is being seen in the SAQ in Quebec and the LCBO in Ontario. So they are no better...no less than the government-run businesses selling liquor.

[Tim Uppal, Conservative, Edmonton—Sherwood Park, AB]

So you're telling me that the average corner store's employees are trained as much as government employees--

[Luc Dumulong]

As far as I know, it's part of their training. It's part of their employment. A lot of chains now are signing contracts with them and informing them that they've been through this program, and if they are caught selling to minors they will be fired on the spot. That's part of the agreement.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

I'm sorry. Thank you so much. Our time is up. I gave you a little extra, Mr. Uppal.

I just want to suspend the committee for a moment and ask about doing clause-by-clause today. Do I have the will of the committee to bring more witnesses up today rather than doing clause-by-clause?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Joy Smith]

Okay.

We will bring more witnesses up. I will just suspend for a minute to ask the officials to come forward. I understand there's another group, SGTG, Small Guys Tobacco Group, who may join as well if there's one representative who would like to choose to do that.

I should ask the will of the committee first. There's the Small Guys Tobacco Group. They're here today. They did want to witness, so I will ask the present witnesses to leave their seats so the officials can come up.

Is it the will of the committee that we also call up Small Guys Tobacco Group?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.