Evidence of meeting #33 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 2nd session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was pandemic.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
The answer to your question is that we've been using the process since the spring that we would use should there be 15% absenteeism, 30% or 40%. The process that we are using is the same. It is defined in the federal emergency response plan.
NDP
Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB
But I'm asking a broader question. I was going to come to the government and the 30% absenteeism in government. I'm talking about the country under a pandemic: who is in charge, who calls the shots, which departments are involved, who is on the coordinating committee, and how many times have you met?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Part of the answer is that the Government of Canada is not going to be “running” everything that is happening in the country.
NDP
Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB
I'm not saying running everything. There is a command and control centre.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Yes, the Government Operations Centre will play a very active role in coordinating the federal response with the provincial and territorial responses. There were daily and weekly exchanges of information. There was the sharing of strategies. People were informed of what was going on, what needed to be done, and what was planned, so there were no surprises. Whether we have 5% absenteeism, or 20% or 40%, it's going to be the same approach. The decisions and actions may be different. For example, the--
NDP
Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB
Okay, getting into the question of the federal government as an employer, how many meetings dealing with this issue have been held with deputy ministers or ADMs of all departments together since May of this year?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
Many.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
I can tell you that I meet with ADMs every week. I have a call with ADMs every week. In the spring during the first wave, I started meeting with them and having a call with them every day, and then it went to three times a week.
NDP
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
I want to thank you for being here today.
As you are hearing from the questions, there is some uncertainty among some of the members of the committee. I was just curious; do you actually have a checklist or something like that? It would make it really simple if you could just check off when you've had meetings with ADMs and the business continuity plan is done with each department. Is there any way for members of Parliament to say they're very content...?
From what we've heard today, it sounds to me that since 2006 you've learned a lot about the bungling back in 2003 with SARS, so you've got the plan started. It is a plan that is dynamic, it's evolving. But MPs just don't know in detail what's going on. Do you have something like a checklist or something along those lines that you could show us?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
We have a number of tools. One of them is the situation reports that we prepare, produce, and share with the provinces and territories. When there is uncertainty, having clear and common information is very helpful in making decisions and avoiding surprises.
We are also in the process of assessing the pandemic plans of departments. We're going to them with a series of questions that are very clear and lay out what we need in order to assess whether or not their plans are of quality.
We also have a regular--I don't like to use the word--battle rhythm. Whenever we meet, we do a situational assessment. We invite people who have something to contribute to that. Then we look at what needs to be done and what's coming up. Depending on the input to that situation, the reaction or the actions we take will vary. If we have few employees who are sick, then the situation is fine and normal. If it increases, then we have to look at the impacts of that. It may mean that we need to talk to individuals we haven't talked to before. We may need to have greater contact with the private sector because there may be impacts on the critical infrastructure, or there may be interdependencies that may be affected.
You were using the word “dynamic” before. There is not one plan; there's an overall approach. But there are some systematic things that we are doing. We're also spending time talking with our neighbours in the United States and Mexico so that what we do in Canada is aligned from a medical and an organizational perspective. We live on a continent; it's much more than just country by country. Health issues are broader, and administrative issues can have an impact on the other country.
So that's how we go about it.
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
It gives me confidence to know that you are following through with all these things. It is just a suggestion, because sometimes when parliamentarians know we're responsible for oversight it gives us a little more confidence if we're able to see those things. Your answers have been very good, and I'm very pleased with how you're bringing this information out.
In your opening you said you were working with the provinces and territories to ensure that we are ready with a coordinated response, and you mentioned working internationally. I wonder if you can give us some examples of how you are working with the provinces and territories, because something of this magnitude does require a coordinated effort. Again, I'm pleased that you have taken a proactive approach in dealing with the provinces and territories, and also internationally.
Can you give us some examples of some of the things you're doing, please?
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
To manage emergencies in Canada we have a committee called the Senior Officials Responsible for Emergency Management, or SOREM. It is made up of the senior people in each province, and we have developed a system that allows us to work together. Something like H1N1 is national, but if there are floods in B.C. it's one thing, or if there are forest fires in northern Ontario it's another thing. The system we have allows us to deal with all hazards, and H1N1 is obviously one hazard. So we have a process for them to request assistance, and we have a process for us to provide assistance. We also have regular conference calls. During the spring we had a conference call a week. Not all emergency management organizations in each province were involved to the same level, so it was of more or less interest to some. Now there's a greater commonality in the process.
Two weeks ago we had a meeting of deputy ministers responsible for emergency management here in Ottawa. We addressed the issue of H1N1.
So the process we have very much involves conference calls. Public Safety has a regional office in each of the cities where they have their operations centres. We exchange information and get a different perspective on their challenges. What is the situation with their own populations? What decisions are their own health authorities taking? How will it affect Canadian society as a whole, and how will it affect federal employees as well?
Conservative
Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON
It sounds as if, when you're implementing the plan, you do have the loop—
Conservative
September 28th, 2009 / 4:15 p.m.
Liberal
Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC
Thanks for being here to help us do our job, which is to have oversight of preparedness on behalf of Parliament.
Our job is to know very clearly that appropriate accountability and measures are in place. So I'm going to ask about two areas. One is about oversight and the other is about the resources for it. I'm trying to get through terms such as “we have the impression”, or “we feel that”, or “I guess it's my responsibility”, and to get to what can be tabled so we can actually assure ourselves as a committee that the oversight and accountability are clear.
Do you have a written mandate with respect to this coordinated response? I'd like to see a copy of it. Does the mandate have measures?
I will just list some of the aspects of accountability that I'm asking about. Are there measures of the success in your job and of your minister's responsibility? Where is the scientific advice coming from for you and your minister? And last, if you're reviewing a plan and checking to see if it's of adequate quality and your department says, “Here's a deficiency in the plan”, and the other department says, “We don't think it's deficient, it's fine”, who then signs off on that? And who is ultimately responsible for the plan being satisfactory and according to what measures? So that's on the accountability side.
And on the resources side, I'd like to know what your budget is for this extra work regarding H1N1. Is there additional money budgeted for training and resources to do this oversight? And secondly, do you support the departments with their extra costs of training and extra workload?
And last, is there extra funding for business continuity in the departments in the case of critical services—because that will mean hiring and incurring extra costs? Are the departments to be supported by a specific budget for that?
Thank you.
Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Emergency Management and National Security Branch, Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness
As for measures of success, we can probably send to the committee some objective numbers about the success of the review of the departments that we are conducting now. I said that we're satisfied with about 90% now, and once we're done, we can tell you what the final result is.
In terms of the scientific advice you talked about and what we do at the public safety department, the scientific advice is not as clear cut as it is in biology. What we're using to manage incidents is something called the incident command system. It's not your perfect incident command system; it is a variation.
The incident command system was developed by firemen. When you get to a fire, somebody who is senior enough takes over, assumes responsibility, and controls everything. What we have with the provinces within the federal government is an approach that is based on this. It means that individual people have accountabilities and there's a coordination place where decisions are made. The Government Operations Centre is one of these places where decisions are made.
Departments and agencies are planning their responses based on a variation of the incident command system. That's the scientific approach. That allows the federal government to have its various operational responses dovetail internally. It also allows the federal government to dovetail with the provinces and the municipalities. It also allows us to dovetail with the U.S., because this approach is fairly well used in the emergency management world.
In terms of signing off, what if we don't agree or if we think more needs to be done? Ultimately, deputy ministers are accountable for their operations. My experience is that very rarely would a good piece of advice, well thought out and expressed at the right level, be ignored.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Joy Smith
Ms. Murray, you're over your time. We have to pay attention to time.
Mrs. McLeod.
Conservative
Cathy McLeod Conservative Kamloops—Thompson—Cariboo, BC
Thank you, Madam Chair.
First of all, I'd like to start by addressing some questions to Ms. Meredith.
I really appreciate your comments around a principles-based approach and the need to maintain some flexibility, recognizing the complexity of the work that's done.
Specifically, I want to speak to your comments about respecting the terms of conditions of employment and engaging the bargaining unit. Within that, typically our collective agreements may not have the flexibility to respond to these unique circumstances you might have with a pandemic, so could you talk to me further about how you're engaging the unions? Are there any significant concerns or barriers? Do you have a process in place such that you're able to move forward?
Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat
Thank you for the question.
We see engagement of the unions happening within departments because, as Mr. Lavoie said and as I mentioned in my opening remarks, it's deputy heads who have responsibility for the health and safety of their employees. They have an obligation to work through the unions and their representatives in the workplace. They would have occupational health and safety committees through which these employee-related issues are discussed.
As well, we at the Treasury Board Secretariat have relationships with the senior representatives of the unions. I'll ask Madam Laurendeau to speak more specifically as to how she's been engaging them on these issues too.