Evidence of meeting #49 for Health in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was research.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Jocelyn Downie  Canada Research Chair in Health Law and Policy, Professor of Law and Medicine, Dalhousie University
Jean Rouleau  Dean, Faculty of Medecine, Université de Montréal
Trudo Lemmens  Associate Professor, Faculties of Law and Medicine, University of Toronto
Peter Brenders  President and Chief Executive Officer, BIOTECanada
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Christine Holke David

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

The point is that we heard from our witnesses--you weren't here at the last meeting, but I think Dr. Rouleau also mentioned it--that what they're looking for is somebody from the private sector who is as up to date as possible. My understanding of that--and with other countries, but also with some of our provinces that look at boards like this--is to have somebody who is employed with a private company. That's the type of person they're looking for because they want the most up-to-date thinking of industry.

To comment on my colleague Dr. Bennett's comments, I certainly agree with her that there probably are other Canadians who can do this job and probably accept an appointment like this, but it's hypothetical that anybody we bring forward wouldn't get the exact same... There would be people against that appointment too. There can be all kinds of reasons for that. From what I've seen of Dr. Prigent, his qualifications, which are what we're supposed to be looking at here--we're not supposed to be looking at who he works for or who he doesn't work for--are excellent, and with the decisions and how the council functions, any of this extraneous stuff shouldn't be of any concern.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Monsieur Malo.

4:45 p.m.

Bloc

Luc Malo Bloc Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Indeed, following the examination of Dr. Prigent's appointment to CIHR's governing council, it is tempting to criticize at the same time the government for its approach to health research. This is why I really want to distinguish between the two aspects of the issue.

We are clearly very concerned about this commercialization of research and I have expressed this concern in my questioning of witnesses today and last week. However, the government will move into this direction with or without Bernard Prigent. Besides, it already has imposed its strategy on the research granting councils.

So that is not the issue here. The question is whether Bernard Prigent, the individual who will sit on CIHR's governing council, has or does not have the abilities to do the job. Considering the role of the governing council and the individual powers of each of its members, and considering the fact that all of the members are also potentially in a conflict of interest because they themselves are members of subsidized organizations, I cannot see myself voting today for the motion of Ms. Wasylycia-Leis.

That being said, my concerns with the direction into which the government wants all the research sector to go remain unchanged.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you, Monsieur Malo.

Dr. Bennett.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

To simplify, Judy, I have a couple of concerns about making this as tight as it possibly can be. As far as qualifications and competence are concerned, those aren't the issues. I think we should say that your committee has examined the appointment of Bernard Prigent and has heard sufficient concerns that it recommends the Prime Minister withdraw his appointment.

I don't want to put into disrepute Mr. Prigent's qualifications or competence. I think at the moment it's inappropriate because of the situation. I would just say that we've examined the appointment and have heard sufficient concerns that we recommend they withdraw it.

Is that okay?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Is that okay with you?

4:45 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Yes.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Mr. Valeriote.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Frank Valeriote Liberal Guelph, ON

Dr. Carrie, I apologize for having referred to you otherwise earlier. I was talking about the amendment to the motion. You're arguing the substantive part of the motion and not the amendment. But since everybody seems to be arguing the motion, I might as well jump into the fray.

I have only joined today. As an objective onlooker, if you can call me that, I think the risk of bringing into disrepute the independence and objectivity of this council--even in appearance--because of this appointment far outweighs the benefits that will be gained by having this gentlemen become part of the council. As I've heard from the witnesses, the skills he offers can be obtained through others, and indeed through him, without undermining the ability to pursue private-public partnerships.

That doesn't make any comment about the gentleman himself. I'm sure he's a wonderful person and wonderfully qualified.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Ms. Wasylycia-Leis, I'd like you to clarify this motion now, if possible. Could you read it out so we're abundantly clear what is wanted here?

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Yes.

I'm quite prepared to take away any words that will delay moving on this motion or winning the support of the committee. I think it is important, especially in reference to Dr. Carrie's comments about his perception, that matters were clarified by the witnesses around the approval of the governing council. In fact, as I understand it and have just had clarified, the concerns of ethics were not resolved; they were set aside by the governing council and senior executives. So in fact there was no agreement and no full involvement of everyone in that decision. There are deep-rooted concerns within the institution, and I think that has to be pointed out as we pursue this issue.

I think the motion Carolyn is suggesting is that after those initial words that have to be there--

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Would you read it out in its entirety?

4:50 p.m.

NDP

Judy Wasylycia-Leis NDP Winnipeg North, MB

Yes: “That your committee has examined the appointment...”.

Carolyn, am I getting this right?

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Yes: “...and has heard sufficient concerns that it calls upon the Prime Minister to withdraw the appointment to the governing council...”.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

One more time, please.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

Yes. It states: “Your committee has examined the appointment of Bernard Michel Prigent to the governing council of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research and has heard sufficient concerns that the committee calls upon the Prime Minister to withdraw this appointment”.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Is everyone clear on this?

Ms. Davidson.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

Madam Chair, I thought this committee was directed such that we could examine the qualifications and the competence, and that was the scope of what we were to be doing.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

That's exactly what we were supposed to be doing, and we have examined that.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

So the motion, as amended, has removed what the scope of this committee—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

That's right. You can bring forth any motion, but—

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Patricia Davidson Conservative Sarnia—Lambton, ON

I realize that, but the scope of the committee is to examine the qualifications and the competencies. Is that correct?

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

That's correct.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Carolyn Bennett Liberal St. Paul's, ON

And express our concern.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

So let's go to the vote now.