Health Committee on March 1st, 2011

[Justin Sherwood]

You will forgive me if I respond in English.

It is not simply a question of putting a little logo on a bottle. If it were that easy, I think we would have probably done it a long time ago. There's reformulation that is required so that no- and low-calorie products, or specifically no-calorie products, can remain no-calorie products under rounding rules. There are nutritional facts panels. There are thousands of products, and both the primary package and the secondary package would have to be changed. Then we're talking about, I would estimate, approximately 100,000 vending machines in the country on which we have to physically change the buttons, as well as God knows how many pieces of fountain equipment we have to get to.

We're taking a tiered approach. You'll start seeing it on packaged products first. Hopefully we'll get to the packaged product, and then once that's done, we'll go out to fountain equipment, etc. Implementation is a significant undertaking that is costing many tens of millions of dollars.

That having been said, arriving at common serving sizes is a relatively short discussion in my sector, because we're a very homogeneous group. You asked me how quickly we could agree on a common serving size; that was a short conversation. It's all the other things that take the time.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Duhamel, it will not happen overnight, but discussions should get underway and the industry as a whole should be invited to act quickly. That is how I see it.

[Paul-Guy Duhamel]

Exactly. There are precedents. When Health Canada decided six years ago to change nutritional labelling, the government gave two years. Certainly some preliminary work took a little time, but, in less than three years, it was done. So we are not talking about something outside the realm of possibility. It is a question of whether the will exists.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Sherwood, I want to come back to you.

A group appeared here before the committee to defend the use of sugar. The representatives told us that companies in your group were indicating on their labelling that products contained sugar. They pointed out that the labelling should be changed by replacing the word "sugar" by "high-fructose corn syrup," as is the practise in the United States. What do you think of that idea?

[Justin Sherwood]

First of all, we use a variety of sweeteners. There is sugar product and there are also non-nutritive sweeteners--ace-K, aspartame, etc.

I believe the nomenclature, the choice of words that you can put on the label, is dictated by Health Canada, and that would be a discussion you would have to have with them.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

But what is your opinion? Do you think it is a problem for people in the industry?

[Justin Sherwood]

I don't know if it would pose a problem or not. I've never asked.

Sugar and high-fructose corn syrup are, for all intents and purposes, identical. One is coming from--

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Great. Thank you for that clarification.

[Justin Sherwood]

Yes. The answer is that I don't know.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

But you are telling me that the two products are basically identical. That is what I understand from your answer.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Tim Uppal]

Monsieur Malo, you have 10 seconds.

[Luc Malo, Bloc, Verchères—Les Patriotes, QC]

Mr. Hunter, I am told that your Internet site is not in French and I would like to know why.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Tim Uppal]

I'm sorry, but we won't have time for the answer.

We'll go to Ms. Davidson.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thanks very much, Mr. Chair, and thanks very much to each of you for being here this afternoon.

I gather that you've determined that we've heard a lot of witnesses on this subject and related subjects and that there are still a lot of things causing confusion. One of the questions I get asked most often by people in my riding, because they know I sit on the health committee, is about labelling and the fact that there never seems to be anything that's consistent. Many of you have referred to this today.

I will put my question out, and then anyone who wants to can answer. If you all want to comment on it, that would be fine.

We've been told over and over again that we need to look at the entire picture. We need to look at a balanced diet, we need to look at exercise, we need to look at everything, but how does the average Canadian know what to choose for the overall healthy diet? If you're diabetic, you choose low sugar, so you read the label for that. If you're on a fat-free diet, you choose the low-fat foods. If you're on low sodium, you choose the lower sodium. However, if you choose the low-fat one, you're often getting a high sodium choice or a high caloric choice. How does the average Canadian ever get through that, and how do we change the labelling process to promote healthy living?

Second, are any of you aware of any research on potential health hazards caused by poor comprehension of these nutrition labels?

I'll throw that out. Ms. Provencher, do you want to start?

[Véronique Provencher]

I think that the Canada Food Guide is the basic tool that provides consumers with the information to make balanced food choices.

I'm sorry for answering in French.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

No, that's fine.

[Véronique Provencher]

We also need to consider frequency. And consumers need to be educated to a certain extent. That said, I think that food is being increasingly intellectualized: everything is being calculated and people are trying to control everything. Generally speaking, people have a good idea of what helps them be healthier and what is less nutritious. I think that they should feel confident about their food choices.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Go ahead, Monsieur Duhamel.

[Paul-Guy Duhamel]

The conversation we're having right now is quite symptomatic of what you're explaining. People talk a lot about nutrients and not exactly about nutrition. Talking about nutrients is one thing; talking about nutrition is another. When we're focusing very much on sodium, on fat, and on specific nutrients, as I said earlier, we're forgetting the ballpark figure.

When we look at the Canadian diet, there are a few things we need to address. Canadians are not eating enough fruits and vegetables. They are not being labelled right now. This is an issue. Canadians are not getting enough milk and milk product substitutes. That's another big issue. It's not the sugar. It's not a fat issue. There are just basic categories of food they are not having enough of.

There are a number of issues like these. When we're focusing on nutrients, we're forgetting that ballpark figure, and as my colleague Madame Provencher said, we need to come back to tools that enable Canadians to learn how to eat food from a larger perspective.

There are some initiatives. I like to refer to what has come out of Quebec, La Vision de la saine alimentation, the vision of healthy eating, which the Government of Quebec came out with last year. It actually has a nice focus on resetting food in terms of perspective, on looking at food from a food perspective and not a nutrient perspective. People eat food, not nutrients. This actually has been recognized by the recent USDA guidelines, which were made public at the end of January.

We really need to stop putting the focus on nutrients and put more focus on the food itself and label accordingly. Right now, labelling is oriented towards nutrients, and that confuses everyone.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Do I have more time?

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Tim Uppal]

You have about 10 seconds.

[Patricia Davidson, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

[The Acting Chair, Conservative, Tim Uppal]

Thank you.

Go ahead, Mr. Lamoureux.

[Kevin Lamoureux, Liberal, Winnipeg North, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to pick up on what Mr. Duhamel and Mr. Sherwood were referring to in regard to sugar and pop. Whether the issues are related to obesity, diabetes, or heart disease, issues of that nature are becoming a greater portion of health care budgets across Canada.

One of the issues in Manitoba, for example, particularly in northern Manitoba, is that it's considerably cheaper to buy a two-litre pop than it is to buy milk, sadly. There is a great deal of concern in terms of the sugar content, and you seem to be of the opinion that it's something we don't necessarily need to be concerned about.

I look to you, as the industry, to give me an indication of this. Do you believe there is a recommended number of cans of pop--I think 255 millitres is how much there is in a can of pop—for a 10-year-old to be drinking per week?

[Justin Sherwood]

I think that is a very personal question. Parents have to address that as they're looking at providing guidance to their children in terms of proper nutrition.

If you're asking me, I have two boys; one of them is four, and he doesn't drink pop at all. The other is seven, and he gets a half can a week.

I think there is a broad recognition from a number of stakeholders that there's a challenge in northern communities. I would argue that in every jurisdiction in the world, soft drinks are less expensive than milk. The general reason is that with milk there is an animal involved, which has to be cared for. Additionally, in Canada there are pricing schemas that dictate how milk is priced. That is compounded by the complication of getting fresh produce into remote and northern communities. I don't think anyone disputes that it's an issue that needs to be looked at.

Do I have a recommended amount for a parent to consider for how much pop or soda their children should have? No, I don't, but I think it behooves parents to understand. Canada's Food Guide is a great example; it has a number of limit statements within it. There are alternatives out there in terms of no-calorie and low-calorie alternatives that have no sugar in them whatsoever.

The objective is that parents need to be equipped in order to make informed purchasing choices.