Evidence of meeting #76 for Health in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was patients.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Emad Guirguis  General and Cosmetic Surgeon, Lakeview Surgery Centre, As an Individual
Jason Sutherland  Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Now I'd like to build on the question of my colleague Dr. Morin. I think you indicated that the Government of Canada requires the provinces to provide certain data. Would that therefore result in conditional funding? Would that be consistent with the Canada health transfer, or is this a whole new way of doing business?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

To my mind it's a new way of doing business, but I think that sort of a spur to provide this sometimes expensive data is critically important to move us to the next level.

For example, if we required patient-reported outcomes data, these could ostensibly be appended to routine hospitalization data already collected, but now they could be collected from the perspective of the patient, who would report on their outcome measures or their experiences during hospitalization.

It might be somewhat or even relatively expensive to set up, although the infrastructure for hospitalization data has been there for many years.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Institutionally, would it be Health Canada that would best play this clearing-house role that you contemplate, or would it be CIHI?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

It would be CIHI. CIHI currently collects all sorts of utilization data. Those include outpatient data; in-patient data; and data on long-term care, residential care, and home care as well.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

If I understand it properly, your criticism is that you've been feeling frustrated—if I read between the lines—at having to do the dissemination. You'd rather do the research. Nobody is doing the dissemination at the federal level.

So you're suggesting a new mandate for CIHI in that regard.

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

I think they are reluctant to take the information in the different data sets and link it together to demonstrate a cross-continuum picture of care of Canadians. Respectfully, I think there are a lot of policy and privacy implications, but they can be and are addressable within the provinces as well.

However, I think they have the technical expertise. Certainly if we are able to articulate how this can improve the efficiency and effectiveness of funding, then I am.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

May I ask one more question?

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

You have one more minute.

4:40 p.m.

NDP

Murray Rankin NDP Victoria, BC

Thank you.

You mentioned, intriguingly, that only the U.K. seems to be doing patient-reported outcome-based measurements. I find that strange. Why aren't other jurisdictions jumping to do that? Do they not recognize how that data would add value?

4:40 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

In the U.K. they've followed a very interesting model in that they've linked physician payments with the collection of patient-reported outcomes data. So physicians are obligated to instruct their patients to collect patient-reported outcomes data pre- and post-surgery, so they are able to understand the brief trajectory of change in a patient's health.

First of all, it's for only five conditions, and they are preference- or supply-sensitive conditions: vein ligation, hernia, hip, knee, and one more as well.

They are definitely going for areas where they feel they can improve the effectiveness of the care delivered and change the value-for-money proposition.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Thank you, Dr. Sutherland.

Thank you, Mr. Rankin.

We'll now go to Mr. Wilks.

February 28th, 2013 / 4:45 p.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and my thanks to the witnesses for being here.

I want to focus, Dr. Sutherland, on ALC or alternate levels of care for patients, especially as we start to get into this aging demographic of all us baby boomers. This will be upon a lot of people for the next 20 or 30 years.

As I understand it, about 14% of hospital beds in Canada are filled with patients who could not be discharged but who require alternate levels of care. According to that research, there are considerable downstream consequences to having high numbers of ALC patients in acute care settings. This includes staff turnovers due to pressure from high hospital rates, reduction in availability for emergency room admissions, facility transfers, and elective surgeries. In addition, ALC patients face risks associated with prolonged hospital stays that result in more than 70,000 avoidable adverse events each year.

I have four questions. I'll give them to you and you can answer as you can. What are the costs to the health care system associated with ALC patients? What are the structural factors in the health care system that have resulted in longer hospital stays for patients no longer requiring acute care services? What role could health funding policies play in addressing this issue? Are there any best practices in Canada or other jurisdictions that reduce the number of ALC patients in acute care settings? If so, can you provide some examples to the committee?

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

Those are four excellent questions. It sounds like a final exam I'd give to my graduate students.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

David Wilks Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

And you'll be assessed on that.

4:45 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

Fair enough.

Certainly, the costs of ALC are not well recognized. A lot of the costs are essentially the suffering of patients who are not able to access the beds that are occupied.

Just for clarification, ALC patients are hospital patients who are ready to be discharged but can't be placed in the community. They're clogging up hospitals and resulting in indirect clogging in emergency departments. I'm not aware of the costs, although I am indirectly aware that hospitals use ALC as a cost-minimization technique to keep under the global budget. This means they don't have their foot fully on the pedal of ALC. Those are the cheapest kinds of patients in the hospital. They require minimal nursing care, minimal drugs, and they're going to be replaced by a high-cost patient.

Second, with respect to the structural factors of ALC, the lack of robustness in many communities has to do with community-based providers. For example, behavioural or geriatric patients with behavioural conditions are fairly rare but difficult to place. The post-acute-care community doesn't have the robustness to accept patients with high or different intensities, or receive the funding associated with them, because they receive a global budget. Those expensive patients are viewed as cost drivers rather than revenue drivers.

That leads to the third question of how to align the policy incentives or create policy incentives to reduce ALC. It follows from the first point that if you want a robust post-acute-care sector you have to pay for it and align the funding with the kind of care you want to provide. If it's expensive and difficult to place patients, you make them almost like revenue-type patients for post-acute-care providers. They'll attract more revenue so they can build specialized facilities and hire or train new staff to deal with those patients.

Lastly, we come to the best practices that reduce ALC. I'm not aware of best practices to reduce ALC, because it seems to be a made-in-Canada problem. In fact, it exists across Canada in every single province from coast to coast. The rates vary in some provinces. Internationally, they get around this by adding capacity and driving up the costs in community care. If we were to do the same and add community-based care to reduce ALC, this would induce higher utilization of hospitals, which might be something we want.

There are no best practices. But there's certainly the opportunity to improve the robustness of the community care setting and take those patients out. As you pointed out, reading from my research, this is really good for a lot of these hospitalized ALC patients, it's good for the staff of the hospitals, and it can also improve the patients waiting for hospital-based care.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Joy Smith

Well, Dr. Sutherland, I think we'll all give you an A-plus, because that was very well done. Thank you.

Dr. Carrie, you're next.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Thank you very much, Madam Chair.

So many questions, so little time, but I'd like to continue with what my colleague was talking about, these alternate levels of care and the statistics that he brought up. Because people aren't being discharged, there could be as many as 70,000 avoidable adverse events. That statistic is just incredible. Some things were brought up today such as a different pay model. Dr. Guirguis said that the funding model that we have now is unsustainable.

It's a real challenge in our country. How do you introduce competition into health care fields within the Canada Health Act? It seems to be very challenging.

Dr. Sutherland, you talked a little bit about community-based providers. My understanding is that in Britain, for example, when people are discharged with things such as diabetes, they have follow-up right in the person's home. In other word, it avoids that expensive re-hospitalization; it pretty much cuts it right down. But in Canada it seems that we have a bias where we'll pay for the most expensive care.

The provinces will pay for a medical doctor to do a house call. My background is that I'm a chiropractor. A lot of seniors have musculoskeletal stuff. We had paramedics in here who do community para-medicine, which would cost the system a lot less, especially if you're doing these discharges and trying to avoid re-hospitalization.

I was wondering, with the research you're doing, which I understand is funded by CIHR or CIHI, has anybody looked at the potential savings if we asked the provinces not to have these biases towards different professionals? Somebody who's a midwife, for example, can actually go out and more cheaply provide in-home services to a woman who has just had a baby instead of having her keep coming in. As I said, there are all kinds of services—paramedics and occupational therapists—but they can't build a provincial plan because it seems as if there's this built-in bias. Has anybody looked at anything like that to put competition in the system?

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

Yes. From my own point of view, I think it's a really thorny issue, because as you add different types of providers to the community care sector, they will provide good quality care for people who need it. As you described, we are biased to providing the most expensive type of care, which is hospitals. Unless we have the will to close those hospital beds, they will fill them with someone else. Those people will then be re-hospitalized, and we're stuck with the same problem of having alternate level care patients in those beds or delivering additional preference- or sensitive-supply care. But those beds will be filled unless they're closed.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Okay, so we've got to tell the provinces—

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

It will be just adding more expenditures to more expenditures.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

This is it. Is seems there's no model to take a look at an innovative way of providing services in the community. As my colleague so rightly said, with the demographic shift, where we're all getting a little bit older—

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

Well, I wouldn't be so pessimistic.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Oh, good.

4:50 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Centre of Health Services and Policy Research, University of British Columbia, As an Individual

Dr. Jason Sutherland

I think some of these innovations that we talked about—for example, bundled payments, whereby you can be innovative in the sphere of care providers and provide different types of skilled care in that bundle of care, but at the same time in combination with policies that are reducing the capacity of hospital-based care—can be achieved to a point to be cost neutral; however, there are trade-offs. It is very politically challenging to close hospital beds, but there are opportunities, so I'm not as pessimistic.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

Colin Carrie Conservative Oshawa, ON

Do I have a little bit of time?