Health Committee on Feb. 19th, 2019

[Ian Culbert]

I'll just add that when we talk about harm reduction, it's not just about supervised consumption facilities. It can also include drug testing facilities, in which technology has not advanced as far or as rapidly as we would like it to have.

The federal government has just announced a contest to develop a compact, portable, effective testing device. That's an important step as well. If the product still comes from the illegal market, at least you could test it to make sure you know what you're using.

Another example is what Ottawa Inner City Health does, whereby the medical practitioners prescribe, in their case, opioids so that their clients have a safe supply of a product of known quantity and strength. Then they can work to reduce their dependence over time. It's not just a PEZ dispenser for meth or opioids. There's a program in place with wraparound services.

There are, then, a number of different options available.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

I want to shift to treatment. Mr. MacPherson, you're quoted in a May 2018 article as saying, “Nowhere in Canada is there a good treatment system, so you have the opportunity to build one in the face of this catastrophe”—the opioid crisis—“But we also need to come to grips with the fact that drug prohibition itself is at the end of its road.... It’s failed. So we have to start looking at allowing people to have access to a safer drug supply.”

You've commented, then, on the safe drug supply. I want to move to the treatment.

What would you suggest, as a policy or program, to us as federal representatives? What would you like the federal government to do to address the poor treatment system that we have in our country?

[Donald MacPherson]

It's very much a federal-provincial issue. The federal government could take leadership with standards and supporting innovative guidelines similar to what the Province of B.C. has developed. We need to lengthen the continuum of options that people have, including low-threshold treatment options. Most treatment programs tend to be higher threshold programs, and by definition, they serve fewer people.

Another aspect of this is that at the same time as building a good treatment system, we can't fool ourselves into thinking the system will solve the problem. In reality, most people don't use treatment. There will never be enough beds or access points for treatment. We need to build a system of treatment, but it's one tool in an array of tools that we need to have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Thanks very much.

Time is up. I'm going to vacate the chair and ask Vice-Chair Marilyn Gladu to take over. I have a private member's bill, so I'm going to finish off tonight.

Thank you very much, everybody.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Ms. Sidhu, for seven minutes.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you all for being here, and a special thank you for serving our community.

I'm from the region of Peel, part of which I represent. We heard before from the mayor of the City of Winnipeg. He also said that Manitoba meth originates in Mexico. There's a border. I also heard from you that we got meth from Mexico.

Can you describe what steps the federal government could take to combat the importation of meth into Canada? What steps do you suggest?

[S/Sgt Lee Fulford]

There's already enforcement and protection at the border, as is. As I said before, there's always room for improvement, but drugs will get into this country. It's our job to focus on our organized crime groups and not the commodities, and tackle the organized crime groups that are bringing the drugs in. There has been the importation of drugs throughout the history of this country. It has never stopped.

We can do a better job at collaborating with our partners to gather and share intel to increase the efforts to dismantle or disrupt organized crime.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

There are obviously a lot of different ways to think about the cost here. There's the human toll, the cost in lives, and a dollar cost in terms of police response, emergency medical response and hospital use.

Can someone comment on the economic impact of the meth issue that arises in Canada?

Mr. Ian Culbert, can you comment on that?

[Ian Culbert]

Unfortunately, I can't. I don't have the data, partially because we don't track drug-specific economic data in that way. Perhaps Donald or someone else could comment.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Donald, from the Canadian Drug Policy Coalition, can you comment on the economic impact of the meth rise in Canada? There's a lot of economic impact.

[Donald MacPherson]

No, as Ian Culbert said earlier, meth use is very low. It's one of many substances that our courts, our border agencies and our police focus on, as well as our health side. We haven't been able to pull out the numbers in terms of the economic cost for methamphetamine by itself.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Okay.

I also heard that there have been several incidents of chemical waste, especially dumping sites. Are there any steps the OPP is taking to put cameras on the sites? What steps are you taking to prevent that?

[S/Sgt Lee Fulford]

We treat each site as an individual investigation. There are steps that our officers will take when they attend a scene. It's our job to gather evidence. Sometimes there's evidence of a dump site at a scene and sometimes there's not, but our officers will attend. They'll process a scene like any other scene to gather evidence, and that's how we further our investigations.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

What are some best practices related to training the health service providers and the law enforcement officers? Is there any special training to combat this fight?

[S/Sgt Lee Fulford]

For police? Specialized training in relation to investigating and dismantling clandestine labs?

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Yes.

[S/Sgt Lee Fulford]

The Ontario Police College has a two-week course. There are only two in Canada. The RCMP has one at the Canadian Police College. There's the course at the Ontario Police College. It's a two-week course that teaches officers how to investigate clandestine lab operations and synthetic drug productions, including meth, fentanyl, ecstasy or MDMA, and ketamine. That course also teaches officers to properly and safely dismantle wearing our protective equipment. The self-contained breathing apparatus has chemical suits for us to go into these dangerous environments to gather evidence to be able to hold people accountable for their actions.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Is there any special support for the family? I know there are two-week or three-week programs, and after that if somebody is using meth, what kind of programs are there? They have a long-term addiction program. How are we dealing with that?

Ian Culbert, perhaps you could comment on that.

[Ian Culbert]

Certainly there are more generic addiction programs across the country that support families of people living with addictions. I'm not aware of any that are specifically focused on the loved ones of people who use methamphetamines. There are certainly family support groups, either formal ones through treatment centres, or the classic ones that follow a 12-step program that supports family members in that situation as well. Again, there are a number of different options. It depends on what resources are available in your community.

[Sonia Sidhu, Liberal, Brampton South, ON]

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marilyn Gladu]

Now we'll go to Mr. Kmiec for five minutes, and he's sharing with Mr. Webber.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

I have one or two questions.

This is not my regular committee.

There was a comment made that Mexico, and then Canada, were the sources of this drug trade.

Can you give us a mix of at least an Ontario experience? Do you find it's fifty-fifty, where half of it is coming from Mexico and half of it is locally made? What is the mix and are you able to tell the difference?

[S/Sgt Lee Fulford]

I can't tell you the statistical analysis because we don't find every shipment of precursors that produce methamphetamines in Ontario, and we don't intercept every one.

There are current investigations involving methamphetamines from Mexico as well as domestic production within Ontario by organized crime in Ontario.

[Tom Kmiec, Conservative, Calgary Shepard, AB]

Okay.

Is the importation mostly of the precursors or is it the finished product, so to speak? Is it the pill or the injection?

I have a friend who works in northern Alberta. I think he called it a “pint”; in Alberta; that's what they call it. It is injected mostly.

Is it the precursor or the material to make the drug that people are importing illegally for that purpose, or is it the finished product?

[S/Sgt Lee Fulford]

Importation from Mexico would involve the finished product, whether powder or the crystalized methamphetamine. Within Ontario the precursors to make synthetic drugs are imported into Canada through source countries, mainly China and India. Once they enter the country they're diverted, and organized crime produce the drugs on a large scale for sale as well as export.