Health Committee on Sept. 11th, 2017

[Carole Morency]

We don't have an actual estimate of costs, but what I can indicate to the committee is the magnitude of the charges and offences before the criminal justice system today. You may know that the Canadian Centre for Justice Statistics releases an annual report on police-reported crimes. In the July Juristat, which reflects the 2016 data, they reported that there were just over 95,400 offences reported to police under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. Of these, 58% were related to cannabis. If you drill down further, cannabis possession was the number one charged offence. In 2016, 76% of the charges, or 17,733 charges, were for possession of cannabis. How does that translate to the criminal justice system? Well, the committee may know that the Supreme Court of Canada pronounced on the issue of delays in the criminal justice system in July 2016. The number of cases being processed has a huge impact on the system.

Presumably if and when Bill C-45 is enacted and implemented, one would expect to see fewer charges being laid for simple possession. To the extent that there are charges or there is an offence being committed, police would have new authority under Bill C-45 to deal with ticketing for smaller amounts slightly over the 30-gram possession, so between 30 and 50, as an example. Beyond that, the regular penalties would apply. So Bill C-45 would definitely have an impact in diverting many charges from the system officially. To the extent that some stay in, it would provide new tools to police and the crown to deal with them in a more efficient and effective way, thereby, we would expect, reducing some of the costs to the system overall.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Thank you.

This question is directed to Justice.

You talk about some of these offences as being ticketable offences as opposed to criminal record. One concern that people have regarding anything to do with drugs is that we know that if you travel to the United States, if you so much as admit to a border officer that you've ever consumed marijuana, or if you're even on the public record as admitting it, you might be indefinitely banned from entering the United States. Let's say you have one of these ticketable offences. I know that U.S. border services would have access to any of your criminal records. Would they have access to these lesser offences? If you had one of these tickets, would this be somehow accessible to the database of U.S. border services?

[Carole Morency]

I think there are two parts to the question. I'll start, and then my colleague can finish.

In terms of the ticketing offences, Bill C-45 requires that if a person is convicted pursuant to a ticket, the judicial record of that conviction on the ticket remains separate from other records and cannot be used to identify the person. It is treated differently from a criminal record.

[Kathy Thompson]

Just to build on that, it's currently prohibited to import or export cannabis. That will continue to be the case. It will continue to be prohibited to import or export it under the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act.

Moreover, CBSA will be undertaking awareness campaigns. They have received some funding to do that. They'll have clear signage to warn Canadians not to take cannabis across the border. As well, Canadians should be aware that cannabis is illegal at the federal level in the United States. We'll make that very clear to Canadians and make sure they understand that this is and continues to be the case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Ms. Morency, could you clarify the statistic you gave us on 76%? What were those numbers you gave us?

[Carole Morency]

They were with regard to the charges laid for the possession of cannabis. There were 23,329 persons charged with cannabis-related offences. Of those, 76% were charged with possession of cannabis.

We can provide the committee with the link for the Juristat, if you'd like.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

Yes, please, if you would.

[Doug Eyolfson, Liberal, Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley, MB]

Mr. Chairman, what year was that?

[Carole Morency]

It came out in July. It's the Juristat for the year 2016 data.

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

That completes our seven-minute rounds.

We will begin our five-minute rounds with Dr. Carrie.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank all the witnesses for being here. At the end of the day, I think everybody's priority is the health and safety of Canadians, particularly our youth. I think everybody would agree that youth use is obviously too high.

I'd like to maybe challenge a little bit what you said, Madam Bogden, that clearly the status quo is not working. The World Health Organization and the Public Health Agency of Canada released a survey of over 30,000 kids in 377 schools across Canada. This survey was first administered in 1990. According to this survey of kids, cannabis use is now at its lowest level since 1990. About 23% of boys and girls aged 15 to 16 report having tried the drug, which is down by half compared with its peak in 2002, when 50% of boys said they had smoked.

I was interested that you parroted exactly the government's line that Mr. Oliver put out, that obviously the status quo is not working. If we define the status quo, we've seen the rates go from, say, 50% of boys.... Maybe it's just 40% or whatever, but clearly we're seeing a decline to where they're saying it's around 22% now. If we're saying that a decline of that percentage is not working, how would you define a system that is working? How are you going to measure what you're going to be doing? Do you have any evidence to suggest that legalization is going to lower that even further?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

I appreciate that. I've shared with the committee the information that we have. Health Canada does regular surveys of Canadians and young people to get a better fix on the rates of use. We are also investing additional funds to undertake additional surveys to get an even better sense of—

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

My question, though, is that you've said that the status quo is not working.

[Jacqueline Bogden]

Yes.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I'll take that statement at face value in terms of what you've said, but according to the evidence that's out there, it seems that cannabis use is now at its lowest level since 1990, and significantly so.

As for the approach of legalization, we have a few states that have done it. Is there any evidence that this use will go even lower with your approach? If you define it as not working—going from 50% at its peak down to 23%—how are you going to define something that's working?

[Jacqueline Bogden]

My colleague Mr. Costen will answer your question.

[Eric Costen, Director General, Cannabis Legalization and Regulation Branch, Department of Health]

I'll do my best to answer your question. I'm not familiar with the specific data you're making reference to, but I can talk a bit about the data we have at our fingertips, which inform the position around youth access. One of the Health Canada surveys that Ms. Bogden is referring to is called the “Canadian Tobacco, Alcohol and Drugs Survey”. It's a survey that's issued every few years. It allows us to track use longitudinally.

The most recent data come from the 2015 survey, and this is the data that is often described: for 15- to 19-year-olds, 21% report use, and for 20- to 24-year-olds, 30% report use. When we look at this survey over the course of the past decade, we see that the levels have been relatively unchanged.

To the second part of your question about what confidence we have that in moving to a new controls framework we might see those rates decrease, I think the experience in Canada in terms of tobacco control is perhaps illustrative, insofar as you have a fairly aggressive regulatory regime coupled with a number of other education, prevention, cessation, and policy interventions—

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Well, Mr. Costen, that is theoretical. What I was quoting is from the World Health Organization and the Public Health Agency of Canada. What they released is the 2014 health behaviour in school-aged children survey, so maybe you can take a look at that. I'm not talking about a theoretical thing. We're worried about our kids, and that's why I wanted to see how you are actually coming up with those statements where you're saying that the status quo isn't working.

Maybe I'll move along to Ms. Crampton. What happens today if I'm under 18 and I get busted for a couple of joints? What happens to me? When I turn 18, does that record get wiped or does it stay there forever? How does that work?

[A/Commr Joanne Crampton]

Legal counsel might be better to answer with regard to what happens to a criminal record, but there is the option of charging. Under the Youth Criminal Justice Act, a youth could be charged with an offence of possession; however, there is always officer discretion involved in any charges we lay—

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I know that's kind of what happens today, in that officers do have discretion, but with the proposed legislation, I believe the amount is five grams, from age 12 to age 17. I don't know if you are aware, but I think five grams of marijuana can be 10 to 15 joints, right?

These are not just high school kids. Some of these kids are in public school. Maybe I will ask Justice: what happens now if I'm under 18? I believe, Ms. Morency, you said that this is going to be something that stays with me my entire life, but I know people who have been charged in the past, and I think at 18 doesn't it get wiped...? Or it can get wiped, right?

[Carole Morency]

Yes. Records can.... Youth records absolutely are dealt with differently, and they're protected against disclosure after the sentence has been served. But in the sense of what your question was, I think it was dealing with two aspects. On what happens now when a young person is found in possession of drugs, police have discretion right now under the Youth Criminal Justice Act.

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

Yes. Most of the time, they don't charge, right?

[Carole Morency]

They can do a warning, a caution, or a referral to a community program, or charges can be laid. Under Bill C-45, that discretion would continue to apply where an offence is alleged to have been committed by a young person, but you were talking about the five grams, and again, that would depend on whether a province has implemented a different approach to deal with the five grams under their non-criminal law powers—

[Colin Carrie, Conservative, Oshawa, ON]

I'm talking about this legislation. It seems to be okay with five grams, but I'm just saying that people in my community aren't okay with that and—

[The Chair, Liberal, Bill Casey]

That's your time, Dr. Carrie, so if we can let her answer...?