Evidence of meeting #45 for Health in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was point.
A recording is available from Parliament.
2:40 p.m.
Bloc
Sébastien Lemire Bloc Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC
Absolutely. I'm glad to hear that you're considering this in order to—
2:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
Your time is up, Mr. Lemire.
We go now to Mr. Davies.
Mr. Davies, go ahead, for six minutes.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I really want to get to questions about COVID, but I feel like I need to clarify some things with Mr. Stewart and the order of the House. By the way, I want to say, Mr. Stewart, that I very much respect your decades of service and your professionalism, so these questions are not meant to be personal.
The first thing I want to clarify is that the very issue before the Speaker concerned the privilege of parliamentarians to receive unredacted documents as a matter of fundamental privilege. Do you not agree that this was the nub of the matter of the Speaker's ruling?
2:40 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair, and honourable member, I answered from the position of my ability to provide those documents, which I believe is material.
2:40 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I understand. I'll quote from the Speaker's ruling. It says:
On June 4, 2021, the president of the agency—
I take it that was you.
—wrote to the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel informing him that the documents sent to him had been redacted because the order of the House did not offer the appropriate guarantees for protecting information related to national security and personal information. He added that the agency was co-operating with the National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians....
The very argument you're making today, sir, you made to the Speaker prior to the Speaker's ruling yesterday. Is that not the case?
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I've been consistently making this argument, and I'm making the same argument today.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Yes, and the Speaker rejected that argument. In taking your argument into account, this is what he said, and this is what needs to be clarified because both you and Ms. O'Connell, I believe, with great respect, are misrepresenting this issue of national security. This is what the order of the House says:
...the Law Clerk and Parliamentary Counsel shall confidentially review the documents with a view to redacting information which, in his opinion, could reasonably be expected to compromise national security or reveal details of an ongoing criminal investigation, other than the existence of an investigation....
Sir, there is no issue of the documents being redacted for national security. The question is whether you believe that it's your right to do it, or whether you have to comply with the order of the House, as the Speaker has ruled, to have the law clerk do that. Is that not correct?
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Mr. Chair and honourable member, these are complex areas in which I am advised because I'm not an expert, obviously. My understanding is what I'm legally able to do, and nothing in the motions heretofore has made me not legally liable for the choice that I'm being asked to make.
I don't know if that responds, or if you... What I'm doing is trying to make a determination based on what I'm able to do and to be consistent with the law.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Yes, sir, and I'm suggesting to you that, with great respect, that is not up to you to say. This is the second ruling now of the House of Commons. Peter Milliken made the same ruling against the Harper government when the House requested the production of unredacted documents, and both times, the Speaker of the House ruled that it's a matter of fundamental privilege of parliamentarians to receive unredacted documents.
Sir, it's not up to you to determine whether they're redacted. You've been ordered to produce unredacted documents, and by the way, those documents will be redacted for national security, just not by you but by the law clerk.
Now, I want to tell you as well that this committee received a letter from the law clerk, and I want to quote from that. It says: We added that the House and its committees are the appropriate authority to determine whether any reasons for withholding the documents should be accepted or not; and that it was for the Committee to determine whether it was prepared to accept any proposed measures....
...we reminded the government officials that the House’s and its committees’ powers to order the production of records is absolute and unfettered as it constitutes a constitutional parliamentary privilege that supersedes statutory obligations.
Do you disagree with the law clerk when he says that Parliament's privilege supersedes any statutory obligations that you may have?
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Mr. Chair and honourable member, do you believe that the motion of the House and the ruling of the Speaker provide me with immunity from the two pieces of legislation?
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Is that the issue you're worried about—your immunity, as opposed to complying with the order of the House? Is that what this is about, Mr. Stewart, your own hide?
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
Mr. Chair and honourable member, as I have been trying to explain, as a public servant, I'm bound by law and I have to follow the law. If the advice I'm receiving involves actions that put me offside of the law, I'm—
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
Whose advice are you receiving, sir? Who's giving you that advice?
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
I'm receiving advice from the normal sources, from the advisers—
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I don't know who the normal sources are, sir. Tell me whose advice you're getting to resist this order of the House.
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
If I may just rephrase that, I'm getting advice on whether I'm able to release the documents, sir, and—
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I understand. From whom is that advice, sir? The question is, from whom?
2:45 p.m.
President, Public Health Agency of Canada
The Department of Justice are the people who provide us advice in this area.
2:45 p.m.
NDP
Don Davies NDP Vancouver Kingsway, BC
I'm going to change my questions here and turn quickly to you, Dr. Tam.
How prevalent is the delta variant in Canada at present?
2:45 p.m.
Dr. Theresa Tam Chief Public Health Officer, Public Health Agency of Canada
The delta variant is now in all provinces and at least one of our territories, in a specific area in one territory. We have just over 2,000 identifications of the delta variant. Of course, as with all coronavirus cases, we may not know every single case that has occurred in Canada, hence my warning regarding precautions and the need to get two doses of vaccine into as many people as possible.
2:50 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ron McKinnon
That wraps up round one. We start round two now with Mr. d'Entremont.
You have the floor, Mr. d'Entremont.
June 18th, 2021 / 2:50 p.m.
Conservative
