Health Committee on June 18th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Ms. O'Connell.

I would actually agree that the witness should be able to answer the question asked. I certainly understand Mr. Maguire's perspective that he'd like to have these tabled.

Mr. Maguire, go ahead, please. You have two minutes left.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

In that announcement the government made, it also said that the funding will be allowed on a per capita basis. However, we know there is urgent need to improve and expand these personal care homes in small and rural communities. Can the minister just tell me quickly whether or not this funding will be allocated directly to the provinces, or will each project need the government's signature, or perhaps her signature, before any federal funding is transferred?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

One of the things that I heard most profoundly from Canadians is that they actually want results for the money that is spent in the space of long-term care. In fact, what they don't want are transfers to provinces and territories that don't result in tangible improvements in the lives of the long-term care residents.

We're negotiating with provinces and territories right now on what the next tranche of money will look like and how best to deliver on that commitment that we all made together—all provinces and territories and the federal government—to protect the people living in long-term care. I'll continue to deliver on that promise on this side.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I know that time is of the essence, and I believe that, with that, many of the personal care homes need to be modernized. Will there be a requirement for the provinces to access this program within a certain timeline?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

We're still working with the provinces and territories on what the new money will look like and how we can best achieve the goals to protect the seniors and the other people requiring care who live in those homes. I'll continue to negotiate with the best interests of Canadians in mind.

[Larry Maguire, Conservative, Brandon—Souris, MB]

I'll just make an observation to finish my time, Mr. Chair. With a billion-dollar ask and a $500-million commitment, it seems that there is less than a commitment to make sure we're meeting the obligations that the government identified to start with.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Maguire.

We go now to Mr. Kelloway.

Mr. Kelloway, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions today will be for Minister Hajdu.

Last week, the testimony from the folks who were here on behalf of Dan's Legacy in Vancouver was really compelling and actually hit quite close to home for me. It's something that I think all members and all Canadians would agree is relevant to Canadians from coast to coast to coast. We know that the opioid crisis is one of the most significant public health crises in Canada. My heart and our hearts, I know, go out to those who have lost a loved one or who are struggling with addiction right now.

I have some context. My riding covers a large portion of rural Cape Breton, as well as small rural communities in mainland Nova Scotia. It's the geographic area of the province that makes up what the Nova Scotia Health Authority refers to as the “eastern zone”. To put this in perspective, in Nova Scotia there are 1,638 individuals in active opioid recovery, and the majority of those—about 830—are in our zone, my zone, the eastern zone.

I want to thank David Sawler, pastor for the Lighthouse Church and youth director of Undercurrent Youth Centres, for all his work on the ground and for providing those stats to me.

Colleagues, unlike previous governments, I'm proud that our government is treating the opioid crisis as a public health issue, not a criminal one. As you know, both the Province of British Columbia and the City of Vancouver are working with Health Canada to explore how those with substance use disorders can better access treatment. Quite frankly, it's an approach to this crisis that I've been following very closely as to how it could be applied to the communities I represent.

I have two questions for the minister.

What are we hearing from organizations on the ground? Do you think this is the right approach? Why or why not?

The second question is equally important. On this type of collaboration between all levels of government, do you think this is something that we can expand beyond the current work Health Canada is doing with the City of Vancouver?

Thank you.

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much.

First of all, my heart breaks for families who are struggling with substance use and problematic substance use, including opioid use. I have to say that the stigma of dealing with substance use and problematic substance use is partly what keeps people away from effective treatment and harm reduction services.

I'll just tell you that on a personal note this is a multi-generational challenge in my family. It is partly why I'm so passionate about this. I've personally seen too many lives that have been destroyed and damaged as the result of problematic substance use. I think that if we look in our souls, we can all say that we know someone we love who struggles with problematic substance use, or maybe we have ourselves.

That's why I think these honest, open conversations are so important, because the more we can talk about it, the more they can talk about it and the more people can feel safe in reaching out. That's the point, I think, behind the conversation around safe supply, harm reduction and decriminalization. It really isn't about encouraging drug use, which some Conservative opponents might say and have said, in fact, in the harmful policy under the Harper legacy for a decade. Rather, it's about meeting people where they're at and offering supports and services in a compassionate way that reduces their risk of dying.

I used to have a colleague who said that no one can get treatment if they're dead. We have to save lives so that people have an opportunity to get better, and that's exactly the focus of this Liberal government. We will work with communities on tools that they feel are appropriate, including safe supply, including harm reduction, including safe consumption sites and including making sure that community groups on the ground that are doing that hard work with families every day have what they need to keep doing that work.

Finally, let me just say that if you have not heard of the group Moms Stop the Harm, please go and visit that website. Listen to some of those moms. They will tell you heartbreaking stories of their young people who have died of opioid overdose, and they are begging governments to be non-partisan in this approach and to work together to get the job done to save lives.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Minister.

It speaks to the importance of looking for creative solutions with all levels of government, but in particular those community groups like the Undercurrent Youth Centre in Glace Bay, which is one of the areas that I represent. The work being done on the ground—also the work being done on the ground in Vancouver and how they're working with the federal government through Health Canada—is something that I know is absolutely essential to Canadians, and in particular to people in rural Canada.

We hear there's a tremendous problem in urban Canada, but it's also a tremendous problem here. Perhaps it's not seen as much, but it is still there. I really thank you for that answer.

How much time do I have left, Mr. Chair? Are you there? I'll say three minutes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry. I was muted.

I said you're officially out of time, but if you can come to a question quickly, the minister may answer.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

We talked about innovations just briefly in the latter part of that answer and question. Looking at virtual care services that have emerged from COVID and the ability to respond innovatively, do you think the government should invest more in that, especially and in particular in rural Canada? I've seen some pretty substantial and positive changes as a result of virtual care. I know it's a provincial responsibility, but I also know we have a role too.

What are your thoughts on that?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you very much to the member for that question as well.

It is one of the silver linings of COVID-19. There aren't many, although maybe we'll find more over the next decades. Right now, a silver lining of the pandemic is that virtual care was able to arise so quickly. Provinces and territories quickly sprung into action to create, for example, billing codes to be able to properly compensate health care practitioners for providing care online or in virtual ways.

I also come from a semi-rural community. The work we have been doing with provinces and territories to strengthen access to virtual care is really critical. We've provided $240 million in funding, including $72 million through supplementary estimates (A). This is about building up the capacity to deliver virtual health care services in a way that protects people's privacy and data and ensures that people get that quality care.

This is not going to replace in-person care, but it certainly can augment in-person care, in particular for people who have a hard time getting access to in-person care.

Thank you, MP Kelloway, through the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

I believe Mr. Barlow is taking Mr. Lemire's slot. Is that correct?

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

No.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'll keep my turn, Mr. Chair. I'm generous, but maybe not to that extent.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

I'm sorry. I'm not clear on who's next.

I have on my list that it would normally be Mr. Lemire. Is it Mr. Lemire?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Mr. Lemire, go ahead.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I want to respond to what the minister said. When all Quebeckers are asked the question, no one wants conditional transfers from Ottawa. We want unconditional transfers, especially for health care. The National Assembly, unanimously, and all the provinces voted for an unconditional increase in health transfers to 35% of provincial spending. The word “unconditional” is important.

Madam Minister, you boast on Health Canada's website that the two interim orders have eased the rules around COVID‑19 vaccines to ensure that Canada remains an attractive location for clinical trials, thereby improving Canadians' access to potential COVID‑19 treatment options.

Yet with the regulatory reform of the PMPRB, you'll do the opposite. You're tightening the rules without listening to the stakeholders. The uncertainty and complexity of these rules have and will have an impact on the number of new drug launches in Canada and on clinical trial activities.

Are you aware of this blatant contradiction?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Thank you.

Given that I can't see that part of the Health Canada website, I'll take a guess that you're talking about the accelerated regulatory ability of Health Canada to review vaccines coming in for approval. In fact, that's separate from the PMPRB. That is actually about making sure that we have the capacity to rapidly assess treatments or drugs that are being used for COVID-19 in a way that does not delay them through an approval process.

The PMPRB, as you know, is about the pricing of drugs. It is a different process.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Yes, but there's still a contradiction.

I'll go back to the importance of delaying implementation to ensure that there isn't any contradiction. There's a consensus on the application of the countries' reference basket. Even the industry is willing to make this concession to get prices down quickly.

I would especially like to see you, Madam Minister, show leadership, set up a discussion table composed of partners and industry representatives to talk about the rest of the implementation of the PMPRB, and perhaps even sit as chair. These participants would include representatives of associations; patients; research; life sciences; the national institute of excellence in health and social services, or INESSS; the Canadian Agency for Drugs and Technologies in Health, or CADTH; the pan‑Canadian Pharmaceutical Alliance, or pCPA; the PMPRB; and the pharmaceutical and biotechnology industries.

Madam Minister, would you be prepared to provide that leadership to ensure a long‑term investment vision for our pharmaceutical industry?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

Respectfully, that's exactly what this Liberal government has done since the beginning of our term of government, take on this challenge of trying to work with the pharmaceutical companies, the patient groups and, indeed, the provinces and territories to look at how we reduce costs of medication for Canadians in this country.

This is an important piece. I absolutely agree with the member that COVID-19 has made this more challenging, given the landscape of COVID-19 and the contribution that pharmaceutical companies are making to beating back COVID-19.

We'll continue. We haven't stopped talking to all of the stakeholders that the member opposite has referred to. We'll continue that hard work so that we can determine the future of the industry here in Canada and also how we move forward with both of those goals: to make sure that Canadians have the access to the best and most cutting-edge drugs in the world, and to make sure that Canadians can afford those drugs. Both of those principles are important.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ron McKinnon]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

We go now to Mr. Davies.

Mr. Davies, go ahead please, for two and a half minutes.

[Don Davies, NDP, Vancouver Kingsway, BC]

Thank you.

Minister Hajdu, you mentioned Moms Stop the Harm. Moms Stop the Harm very clearly believes and states that it's the criminalization of drugs that contributes to many of the harms of drug use. Do you agree with them?

[Patty Hajdu, Liberal, Thunder Bay—Superior North, ON]

I have been very clear throughout my entire career that decriminalization may be one aspect of helping people who use substances, but there needs to be many components to reducing harm related to substance use. In fact, I was the author of the Thunder Bay drug strategy, which has five pillars of action. None of them individually will save lives. We need multiple actions on multiple fronts, which is why this government has invested so much money in substance use and harm reduction to restore some aspects that were severely damaged under the previous government.