Health Committee on June 15th, 2022

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

The unanimous consent motion and the promise you made in your platform wasn't to watch very carefully what happens in the U.S. It was to establish a three-digit suicide prevention hotline. It's been 550 days. How many more days do you need?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Be very brief, Minister. He wants to split his time, and he's at the halfway mark.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Mike, we're not waiting for the CRTC. We're not waiting for anything. We are working every day on building the capacity to make sure that when we push “start”, there will be the capacity to answer this, from coast to coast to coast.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Wetaskiwin, AB]

You just said you were waiting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Lake. If you still want to split your time, you're past it.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

They know they will have some wrinkles.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Dr. Ellis, please.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. My questions will be through you to the minister.

Minister, can you tell us which country is the biggest threat to Canada with respect to importing fentanyl?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

My evidence is that a lot of the fentanyl is being made here now.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Well, that's probably not what experts would say. That being said, it's coming from China. That's a very important thing. Maybe I'll come back to it.

Do you know the usual dose of fentanyl in medical procedures? I understand you're a physician, but perhaps have not been practising for a while. If you don't know it, that's okay. No? With fentanyl, it's 100 micrograms.

As well, how many people would 2.5 grams of fentanyl be enough to treat?

I'll give you the math, just so we can move through this. It's 25,000 people. We're allowing people to possess enough fentanyl for medical treatment doses for 25,000 people.

How much Narcan do we expect the police to actually carry around? Are they going to fill paddy wagons full of Narcan doses? It's nonsensical. How could we possibly say that 25,000 medical doses of fentanyl is an appropriate amount?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Doctor, I think you know that what is on the street is not pure fentanyl. It's been cut with all kinds of other things. That is the reason it's so deadly now.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay, let's say it's 10,000.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

It's filled with benzodiazepines. It's filled with all kinds of things that Narcan doesn't even touch.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Okay, if we say 10,000 doses, is that appropriate?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Doctor, I think the fact that we have all of the law enforcement agencies on side with this, as well as public health, means that we are beginning by beginning. We're going to start by starting.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

Wow.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

As you know, the original B.C. application was 4.5 grams. The Vancouver approach had different amounts for different drugs. The police have asked us to have a cumulative amount, because it's much easier to enforce.

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

I have one more question.

Interestingly enough, could you please table the documents that really justify the 2.5 grams of fentanyl, please, Minister, for this committee?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

I just explained that 2.5 grams isn't—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

That's not what I asked, ma'am. Could you please table the documents?

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

I'm going to tell you that I can table documents that show that—

[Stephen Ellis, Conservative, Cumberland—Colchester, NS]

No—that justify the 2.5 grams of fentanyl, the 25,000 treatment doses.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

That is not what we approved.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

You're past time, Dr. Ellis. Please let her answer and then we're going to move on.

Go ahead, Minister.

[Carolyn Bennett, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

We approved 2.5 grams, cumulative, of whatever a person is carrying. As you know, there are many people using drugs who would use that. We are also getting criticism from the people using drugs that it's not enough in terms of what their daily dose would be of the street version of it.