Health Committee on Oct. 24th, 2022

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister Duclos, thank you for being here. A chief argument against Bill C-31 here and in the House during the 11 hours that it was debated in the House has been that there are provincial government systems that are already in place, so I looked up some of them.

I'm familiar with the Ontario smiles program because I have constituents reaching out all the time whom it fails and leaves needing dental care, in many cases, emergency dental care, which is not often covered or the threshold for the eligibility on their income is exceeded. In Ontario, a family can earn no more than $27,000 with two children, and even with eight kids, the income limit is $38,000, so it's extremely low.

In Nova Scotia, which is far more comprehensive, it only includes one exam, two X-rays and one cleaning. I know that when I was a kid, I needed more than that at the dentist sometimes. This will support many families in my riding and certainly even some in provinces that already have a comprehensive program like Nova Scotia's, which I'd note is not the only Atlantic province.

It will also have an impact on backlogs in hospitals, because as you noted there are, in many cases, young kids at the hospital with an abscess or in need of a root canal who then have to wait for a dentist to come to the hospital. There are also a lot of people in my riding who have changes in work and, particularly recently, gig workers and self-employed Canadians who don't have insurance and earn less than 90,000 and will be eligible for this.

I'm actually surprised at the number of times as a local MP I've forwarded families with young kids to a dentist locally who will do it for free, despite the fact that the healthy smiles program has failed them. I also looked at the Nova Scotia website, which said, if any additional services are required, the dentist may charge for those at a private rate, which this program will account for.

Any consideration for all those families.... I note that Conservatives seem to hate means-tested programming. Any time there is a program that is sent out to people who really need it, families who don't have access, they either say it's not doing enough or we're spending too much money. I actually find this, when I do the math, quite reasonable—

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

I think the fact that the member opposite is putting words into our mouths as Conservatives and saying that we hate a specific type of program is absolute lunacy. It's going down a path that is neither productive nor helpful. I would ask him to keep on topic.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

That's not a point of order.

Go ahead, Mr. van Koeverden.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you.

I apologize for the lunacy.

I'll note that when we brought forward the Canada child benefit, the Conservatives suggested that people might spend that money on popcorn and beer.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Actually, that was the Liberals. Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Go ahead, Mr. van Koeverden. You still have the floor.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Are there any reflections on how this will have an impact on middle-class families who really need it, at a time when there is an affordability crisis?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Adam.

Let us first acknowledge that there are programs and benefits financed and provided by provinces and territories, and that's all fine and great because we're a federation. We all need to play our role.

That being said, we know that approximately seven million Canadians don't go to see a dentist every year because they can't afford it, and many of these seven million Canadians happen to be lower-income Canadians. They are Canadians who don't have access to dental care via private insurance. Seven million Canadians is a lot of people. As we said, that has all sorts of physical and mental health costs, both in the short term and, certainly, in the longer term for children.

As we acknowledge that, we also acknowledge that there are gaps in both eligibility and the baskets of those dental care programs in Canada. Four per cent of total dental care expenses are covered by provinces and territories. However, as I said, almost 30% of Canadians don't go to see a dentist. Out of the total dental care expenditures, 40% of them are paid for directly by people out of their pockets.

We have 4% paid for by provinces and territories and 40% paid for by individuals, many of whom find it quite expensive. Many more—seven million—don't even go to see a dentist, because it's too expensive. Let's acknowledge that the existing system exists by definition, but there are severe gaps in both eligibility and the coverage of the basket of dental care services.

[Adam van Koeverden, Liberal, Milton, ON]

Thank you, Minister.

Again, many Conservatives have suggested that $500 isn't enough to make an impact. Ironically, at the same time, they're advocating that we should spend less money and lower payroll deductions, which would disproportionately benefit wealthier Canadians—as many of their suggestions would—and do nothing for lower-income Canadians who pay little or nothing on contributions to payroll deductions.

Minister Hussen, like you, I come from a modest background financially, and I can imagine that $500 would have helped my mom a lot, particularly at a time like this. For a single person who earns only $20,000 a year, I note that this would represent 2.5% of their income.

Can we reflect on the added benefit that an additional $500 will have for Canadians?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Answer briefly, please, Minister.

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you very much, MP van Koeverden, for that important question and your perspective in highlighting the importance of the support for Canadian renters.

Again, the $500 one-time top-up to the Canada housing benefit is on top of the already existing permanent average of $2,500 that is already going to vulnerable renters right across the country through the Canada housing benefit. It's a program that is now real in all 10 provinces and three territories. We have agreements with all of those governments. This is a cost-shared program. It is already delivering a lot of support to those Canadian renters.

This payment—which we expect to launch by the end of the year, pending the passage of this important legislation—will, I believe, deliver much-needed rental supports to Canadian families and individuals, and it will make a difference. We need to send that support as soon as possible. I urge my colleagues to pass this piece of legislation.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Garon, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Duclos, I imagine you have complete confidence in the Parliamentary Budget Officer, who is one of our institutions.

Last Friday, he tabled a report stating that under your dental care program, Quebec and Quebecers will receive half of what other Canadians are going to receive.

Have you read the Parliamentary Budget Officer's report?

In addition, as a minister and member from Quebec, are you comfortable with the fact that under our program, a Quebecer is worth half of another person in Canada?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

To answer the first question, yes, I have read the report.

With respect to the second question, Health Canada is in contact with the Parliamentary Budget Officer to understand his assumptions better. As was said a little earlier, children aged nine and under in Quebec have access to a dental care system, but it is incomplete: it does not cover all preventive services. A majority of children who go to see a dentist need cleaning, scaling, sealants, and a fluoride application. We are in contact with the Parliamentary Budget Officer about this.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

I imagine you did not introduce a measure as important as this one without your department doing its own calculations.

Would you be able to provide the committee with your calculations on the amounts to be allocated to each of the provinces under this program, by the end of the week?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

What we are going to be very happy to do, because you deserve it, is provide you with the information, which is probably already public, about the structure of access to dental care in Canada, including in Quebec.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

Mr. Hussen, Quebecers have made social choices, including the choice to build a lot of social housing, a lot of housing cooperatives, and a lot of affordable housing. Under the current rules in Quebec, people who qualify for that housing may not spend more than 30 per cent of their income on their rent. These people are excluded from your benefits system at present. We are talking about 86,700 vulnerable low-income people, often single parents, who will not receive the payments.

The Bloc Québécois has introduced an amendment so that these people will be included in the program and will receive the payments, including by eliminating the rule that someone not spend more than 30 per cent of their income on rent.

As Minister of Housing and Diversity and Inclusion, what do you think of that amendment? Would you be prepared to take a step forward to ensure greater equality in Quebec?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you for the question.

I agree with you that many families and individuals in Quebec and right across Canada need this support now.

I want to remind you once again that we are already investing $454.3 million to provide 145,000 households in Quebec with rental supports through the Canada housing benefit agreement that we signed with Quebec. That money is already flowing. This is a $500 one-time top-up to that existing support.

The 30% threshold is recognized as a metric to make sure that all Canadians are eligible to have equitable access, no matter where they live. It is recognized as an indicator of whether an individual has access to affordable housing or not. If they are spending 30% of their income or more on housing costs, then that is considered unaffordable.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you, Minister.

The last round of questions before we let you go will come from Ms. Kwan, for two and a half minutes.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you.

I'm glad that I get this last two and a half minutes. I just heard the Conservatives say that dental care is not in crisis. Why do we need this in such a hurry?

I have to say that it's only been sixty years since Tommy Douglas introduced universal health care. Part of that vision was always to include dental care. Here we are, sixty years later. I'm glad that we have this for Canadians as a first step.

I note that the Conservatives voted against this last year and they to continue to be against it. I'm glad that the government had a change of heart and is now supporting this. I very much appreciate it. Dental care is important, and it is needed. There's no question.

I want to ask a question about housing, though, as well.

The housing benefit is a one-time benefit, and yes, it is on top of the existing benefit. In light of the fact that inflation and costs are going up—there is even a projection that there might be a recession coming—would Minister Hussen be amenable to extending this program into next year should the situation, in terms of the pressures for Canadian families, persist?

[Ahmed Hussen, Liberal, York South—Weston, ON]

Thank you very much. That's a really important question to highlight the challenges facing Canadian families. As a government, we have had the backs of vulnerable Canadians throughout the pandemic and beyond—and even before that. This is support that is needed immediately. We need to get it out as soon as possible so that it can get to Canadian families that need it now.

Obviously, we will continue to monitor the situation. We'll continue to be there for vulnerable Canadians, whether they need access to affordable dental care or access to affordable housing and rental supports through the Canada housing benefit. We will continue to monitor the situation, but the focus right now is on getting this support out as soon as possible.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

Thank you, Minister. I hope the government will bring forward a similar program next year. The dental care piece will continue next year for others who are not qualified at this moment, but the housing piece will stop. I think we do need more than a one-time piece.

The other thing ties into the issue around mental health. Doing dental care does not necessarily mean to say that the government should not recognize the need for mental health. The NDP absolutely calls for mental health support and investments to address that.

Maybe Minister Duclos can advise. Can we ensure that the government will flow the money to address the mental health crisis?

[Jean-Yves Duclos, Liberal, Québec, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Kwan.

Given that we don't have a lot of time, and given that for the first time ever in history we have a Minister of Mental Health and Addictions, perhaps the committee, just as a suggestion, might want to invite Minister Bennett. She would be most able, and certainly very pleased, to speak about the crisis and the actions we need to take and continue to take to address that crisis.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sean Casey]

Thank you very much, Minister.

[Jenny Kwan, NDP, Vancouver East, BC]

I appreciate that. Thank you very much, Minister.