Evidence of meeting #34 for Health in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was study.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Steele  Chair, Best Medicines Coalition
Parmar  Vice President, Government Relations and Regulatory Affairs, Canadian Health Food Association
Lévesque  General Manager, Groupement provincial de l'industrie du médicament
Farrah  Committee Researcher

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Mr. Mazier, my role is at the committee only. What happens in the House...unless it is directly related to the topic we are studying. We are studying the topic of HIV, an issue Manitoba is facing right now. You belong to that province.

I can only call the vote on the amendment you brought forward once the speaking list is exhausted. As soon as members are done speaking, I can call the vote and then you fellows can decide.

My role is just to administer, making sure that every member who has a hand up is given their time. I'm not going to call out one person or the other. I'm not attacking this side or the other. I'm telling this to both sides; I'm not talking to one side.

Mr. Mazier, are you done?

4:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Riding Mountain, MB

Thank you for that, Chair.

I guess that goes back to my point on what we say here. If a member decides that we're gaslighting and doesn't believe what Dan Mazier says, that's.... If we can have the discussions here at the table, I think that's a lot better.

I want to go back to the motion and HIV in general. If you think it's bad and we're blocking all this, this is a very personal matter to me in my riding. The town of Swan River is probably the epicentre. Everybody talks about Winnipeg. Doug, do you think you have problems? It has the highest per capita rate in the entire province, and it's been like that for years.

I commented a bit on this last meeting. Obviously, what we're doing is not working. There were over 500,000 needles distributed among a community of 4,000 in Swan River. Can you imagine that? The people who were distributing them were asking for sharps containers so people could put the needles in there after they used them.

Look at the crime severity index for Swan River two years ago. In 2019, it was one of the 10 best places to retire in Canada. It has now moved to having the highest crime severity index rating in all of Canada—a community of 4,000.

In your motion, you referred to “public awareness efforts, and intergovernmental coordination related to HIV prevention, care, and support services”. There were medical and public health individuals with lived experiences. Those people have gone through hell. That's why I wanted to talk about the opioid epidemic that's happening. It's happening in Manitoba.

I also want to talk about how we can move forward. Why were 500,000 needles distributed in a community of 4,000? Who is doing that? Who is okaying that?

Then we get to Winnipeg. The Liberal government, in 2017, maybe even in 2021, made a loophole in the Controlled Drugs and Substances Act. You talked about consumption sites and treatments. In section 56.1, there are exemptions, and then there's a class exemption for the provinces to develop their own treatment facilities. There are two federally approved sanctions in legislation that the health committee needs to look at if we want to address the opioid epidemic and consumption sites in this study.

That's why I asked the other day to include the opioid study. At least let's start having a conversation around treatment. I was asking for that and you shut that down. You absolutely said no to that, and I noticed the other day that you were saying, “Well, that's not right. Maggie actually commented last night on the late show that, no, that wasn't right.” Who is gaslighting here?

That's what happened here folks. We were trying to talk about this. This is very reasonable stuff.

With that, I will end.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Mr. Mazier.

We will now go to Dr. Eyolfson.

Doug Eyolfson Liberal Winnipeg West, MB

Thank you, Chair.

Time is of the essence on this. People are dying, including in Mr. Mazier's riding. I agree that it's a hot spot. This is one of the reasons I thought this was so important to bring up at this time. I'd like to see it move forward.

I am in complete agreement with Mr. Mazier's amendment, which is what we are talking about here today. I implore all members to pass Mr. Mazier's amendment so that we can get going on this study. I don't want to see people dying while we are waiting to take action.

Please, let us all take action for vulnerable people.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Mr. Eyolfson.

Madam Sidhu, please go ahead. The floor is yours.

Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I just want to urge the members opposite, as the vice-chair's hometown is also Manitoba and as there is a medical emergency there, to please go forward with this. Then we can study this topic.

We agree with them when they wanted flexibility. Then they said to bring the health minister in on this because we want to study this. I'll say thank you to Dr. Eyolfson for bringing up this topic. It's important.

Let's do this study. I urge opposition members to let this pass.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Madam Sidhu.

I will repeat that until the speaking list is exhausted, I cannot call the vote.

We have Dr. Strauss on the list.

Please go ahead.

4:20 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Strauss Conservative Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Thank you, Chair.

I found Ms. Chi's comments very interesting. Specifically, she said that Canadians are looking for this committee to take action. I found that surprising because the Minister of Health is the person who is able to take action on this crisis. This committee doesn't really take action. This committee procures documents. This committee discusses and debates. This committee prepares reports.

If we do this study, the only action that I foresee—unless somebody else on the governing bench would like to correct me—is that a report will be forthcoming. A report is not really action, but as far as the reports go, we already have three other reports in the pipeline that haven't been produced yet. What is the urgency to discussing this study in order to produce a report when we haven't produced reports on the last three studies?

She is the parliamentary secretary, so she's close to the Minister of Health. She's close to the person who could take action. I just want to understand this. One, what action is she expecting this committee to take? Two, why doesn't the health minister just take that action presently? Three, which Canadians specifically have been asking for the health committee to do this? I haven't seen that in the media. I haven't seen that on social media. Nobody has contacted my office demanding that the health committee take action on this. If they did, I would have to educate them about what limited actions the health committee could take.

What I do see, conversely, by way of a counter-example, is a lot of interest in the $300 million that went missing with PrescribeIT. Canadians are demanding an investigation on that. There have been umpteen stories about that in the Global and Mail alone.

I'll leave that with her. She can explain to me which Canadians are demanding that this committee take action.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Dr. Strauss.

We will go to MP Blanchette-Joncas.

Please go ahead.

Maxime Blanchette-Joncas Bloc Rimouski—La Matapédia, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair, for the opportunity to talk about the important issue before us today.

I would still like to explain to my colleagues that this is an emergency situation, but we also know how urgent it is to properly fund health care systems. The federal government has a role to play in this regard. The initial agreement, which dates back to the 1960s and 1970s, provided that the federal government would cover 50% of the costs of the health care systems of the provinces and Quebec. Currently, that contribution is about 22% to 24%. As we see, there is an imbalance.

I checked, and I remind my colleagues that the Government of Manitoba, which is currently in the midst of a crisis, says that the federal government pays about 20% of the costs of its health care system. Including indirect transfers for certain programs, I round that up to 22%.

The real problem is that, for years, the federal government has claimed to be a great defender of the health care system, while Quebec and the provinces are speaking out about a fundamental problem: Ottawa's funding no longer meets the system's real needs.

I would like to explain to my colleagues and the people listening to us that there was a major turning point under the Harper government in 2011. It decided to reduce health care transfers, particularly those made through the Canada health transfer, which used to automatically increase by 6% per year.

In 2011, the Conservative government decided that, starting in 2017, this formula would be replaced by an increase related to average growth in nominal gross domestic product over three years, with a guaranteed floor of 3%. In other words, the government was funding a fixed, predictable growth of 6%, but it has moved to a slower growth tied to the economy.

You understand that this is one of the things that has an impact on health care systems and makes it harder for Manitoba, the other Canadian provinces and Quebec, in particular, to deal with the various crises.

When Justin Trudeau's government came to power in 2015, it had a chance to go back to the old formula, but it chose to maintain the one that the Conservative government had put in place. We now see that the Conservatives and the Liberals have done the same thing when it comes to funding health transfers.

We have continued to speak out on this issue. The provinces told us that a direct cut was visible and concerned a single budget line. You don't have to be a public finance expert to understand that. The problem, yes, is the current crisis. However, we also have to be able to deal with it. The federal government has a role to play, but we are up against its inaction, or even its gradual and structural underfunding.

I stand in solidarity with all health care workers and those affected by the crisis. Transfers have been going down in recent years, but the real costs of the health care system are skyrocketing. There is the aging population, inflation, staff shortages, increasing wages, rising drug and medical technology prices, mental health issues, addictions, home care, overflowing emergency rooms and public health crises, including HIV.

The numbers speak for themselves. Health care spending in Canada was nearly $400 billion in 2025. That's a lot of money. Expenditure growth was about 6% in 2023, 6.1% in 2024 and 4.2% in 2025. All of this shows that the current federal formula limits the growth of health transfers to much lower levels, since it is linked to nominal gross domestic product.

That is why Quebec and all the provinces asked the Trudeau government, as part of a united front at the Council of the Federation, to permanently increase the federal contribution to 35% of health care system costs. Unfortunately, that request was denied. It represented an additional $28 billion per year, approximately, with no federal strings attached.

The deal that was proposed by the Liberal government at the time was more like $200 billion over 10 years. However, it did not reach the necessary percentage. The transfers represented about 20% to 22% of health care costs and were increased to 24% of health care costs, which is a far cry from the 35% Quebec and all the provinces are calling for. In other words, Ottawa has not fixed the problem. There is a fundamental imbalance, which has been criticized for years by Quebec and all the provinces, with real-life consequences across the country.

Let me explain this clearly to people, because I am convinced that Manitoba and other provinces would be in a better position to deal with the various crises, but these provinces are unfortunately underfunded relative to their important responsibility to provide health services.

I've talked to a lot of health care people and meet with them regularly. Hospitals are under pressure. There are waiting lists, there is a staff shortage and access to doctors is difficult. We're seeing more and more mental health problems, and it's even very hard to get an appointment with a psychologist. There are also addiction issues.

Community organizations are on the front lines, and they are doing an incredible job. I commend them and thank them from the bottom of my heart. However, these organizations are vulnerable. There are health crises, such as the one we recently experienced, and the situation gets harder and harder to manage.

What I want to mention to my colleagues is that, in provinces like Manitoba, the HIV crisis is an example of the impact of a constantly stressed network. The problem is not a lack of will, but a lack of capacity. Until the provinces receive a share of funding from the federal government that actually keeps pace with the growing needs, it will be harder and harder for them to deal with these crises.

The crux of the issue is quite simple. We know the situation. The federal government announces billions of dollars, keeps holding press conferences and strategizing, but still refuses to take on its share of the funding. This is not a luxury. It's about taking care of people, saving lives and making sure people are healthy.

If there is one priority, I think it is that. I see taking care of people as a responsibility. According to my political beliefs, we have to take care of vulnerable people and those experiencing health problems, whether temporary or permanent. I think a sustainable health care system requires better funding.

Again, this is not a dramatic cut that the government made overnight. It's been a gradual withdrawal, with the real-life result that health care systems across the country are increasingly fragile.

In conclusion, I understand that difficult choices have to be made and that resources are not unlimited. However, the federal budget contains the largest deficit in Canadian history. We're talking about $78 billion here. I can appreciate that it ended up being reduced to about $66 billion and change. However, there is no increase in health transfers. There is no extra help for workers in the sector to improve their working conditions and enable them to deal with crises like HIV.

I'll draw a parallel. I think a lot of people will understand this very well. The government found $82 billion over five years for national defence spending. They were able to find that money, but not the money to improve health care systems, to take care of people and to save lives. I thought it was important to point that out.

I find that the government is currently completely out of touch with the needs of the people. Health care is a priority, and I don't think we're on the right track to strengthen health care systems and take care of people.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Mr. Blanchette-Joncas.

We have two people on the list. They are Dr. Strauss and Mr. Mazier.

Dr. Strauss, please go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Strauss Conservative Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

I'm sorry. I thought I asked some pretty specific questions of Ms. Chi about her comments, which I thought were really interesting, and I wanted to hear more about them. I guess she's not interested in explaining what she said.

On the broader motion at hand, I'm still totally confused about what the scheduling is going to be like. I'm not sure if this question is best put to the clerk or to Mr. Eyolfson. Is it her intention or is it his intention? Which is the intention that matters as to when this HIV study will begin?

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

May I answer that?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Strauss Conservative Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

Yes, please.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

We have until 5:30 today. If we conclude this topic by 5:30, if this is passed, the next meeting I will put together will be for committee business. We will then be able to decide in committee business what we have to study.

It's now up to the members. If by 5:30 we do not conclude this, then the meeting is suspended until the next meeting. The business meeting will come only after we conclude this one. The next meeting that the clerk and I will be planning will be for setting the business agenda that we can achieve in the next three or four weeks.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Matt Strauss Conservative Kitchener South—Hespeler, ON

That's very important information, Mr. Chair. Thank you for sharing that. I truthfully am grateful for your sharing that, but I guess that arrangement is dissatisfactory, to me. I can't decide how to vote on this motion if I don't know if it's going to be taking precedence over some of the other really important committee work or if it's going to be coming after. This is really important.

I take it that at the committee business meeting, it will be these committee members who decide what the order will be, so I don't know why we have to keep that secret until then. Why don't we just hash that out right now? Perhaps the members opposite would just let me know how they intend to order things. I mean, they have the votes. All we have is the ability to make these speeches. It is true that they have all the power in this situation. If they could just tell us how they intend to schedule this study at committee business, that would help me understand how I should vote on the motion at hand.

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Thank you, Mr. Strauss.

You know, you have all the power to make that decision when we call the business meeting that sets up the agenda. Right now I'm going to focus only on the amendment brought by Mr. Mazier. I have to first deal with that. Then, if it gets amended, I have to deal with the motion as amended. My role is to keep the sequence right now. I have a motion on the floor. I cannot put this motion aside right now. It's the committee's will. It's whatever the committee wants me to do. Right now it's the committee's will to have a debate on Mr. Mazier's amendment. Until the list of speakers is exhausted, I cannot take that decision.

Dr. Strauss, I have put you on the list again. You will be speaking after Mr. Mazier.

Mr. Mazier, please go ahead.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Riding Mountain, MB

Thank you, Chair.

My colleague brings up a very important thing as far as scheduling goes.

To the clerk, how long would it take to do a report like this? Would it be two meetings? What's your estimate? What would that look like?

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

Those would be questions for the analysts. Let me see if they're willing to answer. Otherwise, I will make my decision.

Mr. Mazier, I'm able to answer your question. Right now there are two meetings, and it depends on the witnesses we bring forward. We are talking about hypothetical things right now, so I wouldn't be able to answer that, and the clerk and analysts wouldn't be able to answer either. We do not know what's going to happen in those meetings. After those meetings are over, then we will be able to answer that question.

Let's focus on your amendment right now. Once we get your amendment out of the way, and once we have the motion as amended out of the way, if the committee decides to pass it, we can talk about those things after the business agenda is set.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Riding Mountain, MB

Is it fair to say that it won't be done before summer break?

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

I can't say that right now.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Riding Mountain, MB

Do you think we can do it next week?

The Chair Liberal Sukh Dhaliwal

I'll tell you right now that—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Mazier Conservative Riding Mountain, MB

I guess the reason I'm asking, Chair, is that it's back to the scheduling order. It's also back to the comments that Mr. Eyolfson made, like, don't worry, the PrescribeIT study is going to be done.

When you introduced this motion, Doug, what was your expectation on scheduling? Did you—

Sonia Sidhu Liberal Brampton South, ON

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

Are we working on HIV or are we working—