Procedure and House Affairs Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2006

[David Chernushenko]

It's a legitimate point you raise, Mr. Dewar. Whether what's required is vigilance or tighter rules, this concern will have to be addressed. But this reform needs to be part of a bigger package of electoral reform. Fixed election dates alone will do little to address the longer list of goals that all of us around the table want to see achieved. Spending is one issue. It will have to be addressed, as will proportional representation. There is a longer list; each of us might have one, but I think all these points need to be taken into account.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Donison, and then Mr. Gardner.

[Michael D. Donison]

I put faith in the intelligence of the electorate. With a fixed election date, if governments try to use government advertising, it's patent. The electorate will know. If a government on the eve of a fixed election date starts engaging in government advertising, it will be obvious. Right now, particularly in a majority situation, governments can do that and the opposition doesn't know. So I think this bill will ameliorate the situation. It will give us transparency.

I also think—Mr. Owen may know more about this than I do—that this wasn't the problem in British Columbia. In British Columbia, the election date was obvious. The Liberal government of Mr. Campbell was very circumspect—not because of any law but because of the political consequences. The electorate can see through this. With a fixed-date election, governments are going to have to be careful, regardless of whether there are rules or regulations. Politically, they get into a dangerous field. What they're doing will be obvious to all the voters, more so than at present.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, Mr. Donison.

Monsieur Gardner.

[Gilbert Gardner]

My friend here has just given me a clear indication that Jean Charest is going to be defeated in Quebec. Some $3 billion have been spent since the month of June.

As you were saying earlier, I think that if we want to have some control over a government's integrity and morality as regards the use of public funds in a pre-election period, we will have to establish an actual complaint process. Also, an independent authority will be required, in order to determine whether the actions of the Government are inconsistent with the Elections Act and what is authorized in the way of election spending.

And the fact is that we are currently in a pre-election period of sorts. Right now, there is absolutely nothing. The legislation before you will in no way change the current reality. I think it's a little futile to think that we will be in a position to implement effective control mechanisms.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

You have twenty seconds left, Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'll save it for the next half.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you, sir; I appreciate it.

We are starting our second round now. I'll remind members we're down to five-minute rounds each. We've done very well, but it's five minutes now.

I have Ms. Jennings up next, please.

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for your presentations.

I simply want to say that as a Quebecker, I have the same concerns as you do, Mr. Gardner, with respect to the date set out in the Bill as the fixed election date.

For a number of years in a row, I myself had to move on July 1. My view is that the proposed date is really problematic for Quebeckers.

My question is mainly for Ms. McGrath, and possibly Mr. Chernushenko as well.

First of all, Ms. McGrath, you stated that having fixed election dates would encourage Canadians to exercise their right to vote, which would lead to higher voter turnout rates. I'd like you to tell us -- I looked, but was unable to find any -- what studies you have that show a positive correlation between fixed election dates and the voter turnout rate?

I do know of studies showing that there are jurisdictions where they have fixed dates, but they also have penalties and sanctions that apply to citizens who do not exercise their right to vote. However, I have seen no studies where the decision to vote is one the citizen is truly free to make, and where the turnout is much higher than in those jurisdictions where there are no fixed election dates. So, I would be very interested in having that information.

My second question is addressed to Mr. Donison. How will Bill C-16 limit the Prime Minister's power to go to the Governor General's residence to ask that an election be called at a time other than the fixed date? I read the Bill very carefully and I saw no such restriction there. Indeed, the Leader of the Government in the House of Commons was boasting about the fact that Bill C-16 in no way limits the Governor General's discretionary power to call an election at any time before the fixed date.

Can you tell me where you see such a restriction, since you mentioned that we now have a Prime Minister and a party that would be ready, as you said, to

“walk the walk and talk the talk”. Where is it in Bill C-16?

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

We have one minute for each answer, if we want to divide it that way.

Ms. McGrath, you can go first, and then Mr. Donison.

[Anne McGrath]

I can't cite any particular studies that talk about the increase in participation rates as a result of a fixed election date, although I'm assuming there is research done for this committee that could probably put forward some of that research.

I think, from an intuitive point of view, that there is in the population a general unease or lack of faith in the democratic system. That's not necessarily going to be fixed by something like this; as I said before, that's in the context of a larger democratic reform package. But I believe that knowing when the election is, having the ability to advertise widely, having the issues out there, will encourage more people to participate actively in the electoral process.

I'm assuming that the research capacity of this committee would be able to put forward some of the relevant studies. As a matter of fact, I think I read some of that in the background for your committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

I'm going to allow a little bit more time on this, because you didn't comment on the issue of punitive measures for folks who don't vote. Could we just get a comment on that very briefly, please?

[Anne McGrath]

I know there are jurisdictions that do have that and that it has increased the electoral rate. My own preference actually is to have more proactive approaches to it. So I wouldn't necessarily support at this point penalties as a result--

[Marlene Jennings, Liberal, Notre-Dame-de-Grâce—Lachine, QC]

On a point of order, I did not propose it. I simply brought in my question about what studies exist. There are jurisdictions with fixed dates and with punitive measures. Therefore, where are the studies that show the correlation that when you have the freedom to vote and fixed dates, you have higher voter participation?

I don't want to cause any confusion, but in no way did I wish to suggest that there be punitive measures.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you for that clarification.

My understanding in the answer is that you don't know of any studies that are available.

[Anne McGrath]

No.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Donison, one minute, please, on your answer.

[Michael D. Donison]

One minute on this question, Mr. Chair? I'll try.

Mr. Chair, Madam Jennings is absolutely right when she says that legally nothing in Bill C-16 changes the current legal situation or the conventions of the Constitution. The reason it cannot is because the only way that can be affected is a constitutional amendment under section 41, which would require unanimous agreement, because it would affect the office of the crown.

However, we don't have to deal with theory. We can deal with practice. Again, I would cite all of the jurisdictions in the Westminster model that have adopted the fixed-date election. None of them has restricted the old discretionary powers of the crown, but in all cases they're working. And I gave a concrete example, Mr. Chair. If Mr. McGuinty, the premier of this province, decided to go to the Lieutenant Governor, he'd have to have an awfully good reason to dissolve now.

What fixed date elections do is create the expectation in the political classes and in the citizenry that this is the new norm, the new standard. So a prime minister or a first minister who decides to use his discretionary political power and rely on the crown's legal discretionary power would be treading on very difficult political ground. The reality is that jurisdictions have adopted it, and almost, I would dare to say, a convention of the Constitution has evolved, in which those first ministers simply do not...unless it's a national crisis or the government loses clear confidence, and that's very rare in a majority situation.

Theoretically, you're right, Madam Jennings, but in practical reality this will set the new standard. Certainly we've witnessed that in B.C. and Ontario.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you very much.

Sorry, we're going to have to close on that round. Perhaps we could get a question back again. I see Mr. Gardner would like to comment, but we've gone way over on that round.

Are there questions from the government side? No questions.

Please, Mr. Reid.

[Scott Reid, Conservative, Lanark—Frontenac—Lennox and Addington, ON]

Yes. I'm not sure if I have the authority to assign homework, so if the witnesses wish to actually make a comment on the question I proposed to them, as opposed to me imposing a written submission on them, they could do so.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Do the witnesses remember the question from the first round?

Then let's go with this round as Mr. Reid's questions.

We'll start this time with Mr. Donison on Mr. Reid's question from the first round.

[Michael D. Donison]

On your specific question, Mr. Reid, I will take the assignment of making a written submisssion. I'd be willing to do that and I will undertake to put something together as soon as I can.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Mr. Gardner.

[Gilbert Gardner]

We can certainly give this some thought, but in terms of the principles, there is certainly the fact that this date would directly conflict with well-known dates, such as the first Sunday in November, when municipal elections are held in Quebec, not to mention the other point that I spoke about at length -- namely the fact that many people move around that time and the voters list in Canada would not be complete.

[The Chair, Conservative, Gary Goodyear]

Thank you.

Mr. Chernushenko.